# How to measure debrided lesions?



## Tonyj (Feb 7, 2020)

I'm having trouble determining how to code these measurements of debridement's.
Can someone list the proper way to address these measurements attached from an op note.
I would really appreciate the input.
It was coded as such; 11005-22 (abdominal); 11042-59 x 2; 11045-59 x 72 units; 11045-59 x 34 units


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## fwnewbie (Feb 9, 2020)

I'm interested in finding out how an experienced coder figures this one out!
11005 describes removal of skin, subq, muscle and fascia.  11042 would be used if all the deeper you went was subq.  Did they specify whether muscle was included.  I realize 10.5 is deep but some abdominal fat can be even deeper.  From what I read, you group the wounds by depth but none of these is reported at same depth.


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## Tonyj (Feb 10, 2020)

fwnewbie said:


> I'm interested in finding out how an experienced coder figures this one out!
> 11005 describes removal of skin, subq, muscle and fascia.  11042 would be used if all the deeper you went was subq.  Did they specify whether muscle was included.  I realize 10.5 is deep but some abdominal fat can be even deeper.  From what I read, you group the wounds by depth but none of these is reported at same depth.


This is the OP note;
Specimen dimensions: Addendum
Left lower medial leg soft tissue portion 1 measures 15 x 11 x 4 cm with 13 x 6 cm skin
Left lower medial leg soft tissue portion 2 measures 21 x 10 x 6.5 cm with 23.5 x 6.7 cm of skin
Left lower medial leg soft tissue portion 3 measures 28 x 20.5 x 8 cm with 34.5 x 12 cm of skin
Right lower medial leg soft tissue measures 36.5 x 31.5 x 9 cm with 9.0 x 3.6 cm of skin as well as 30 x 23.5 cm of skin Left lateral thigh soft tissue measuring 38 x 30 x 10 cm with 15.2 x 21.5 cm of skin
Right anterior thigh soft tissue portion 1 measuring 15 x 7.5 x6 cm and portion 2 measuring 6 x 5.5 x 1.5 cm with greater than 13 x 7 cm skin
Abdominal wall soft tissue measures 60 x 35 x 10.5 cm

POSTOPERATIVE DIAGNOSES
1. Necrotizing wounds with superimposed infection of bilateral medial calves,
left hip, right anterior thigh, and abdominal wall.
2. Morbid obesity with a body mass index of 50.7 after debridement, but >60 on admission to XXX
3. Altered mental status secondary to toxic metabolic encephalopathy,
presumably secondary to sepsis.
4. Diabetes.

PROCEDURE: Debridement of necrotic, infected, skin and subcutaneous tissues from left lateral thigh, left medial lower leg, right medial lower leg, right anterior thigh, and abdominal wall.
SPECIMENS:
1. Right lower medial leg, 3095 g.
2. Abdominal wall, 4208 g.
3. Left lateral thigh, 3,654 g.
4. Right anterior thigh, 483 g.
5. Left lower medial leg, 2272 g of tissue.

FINDINGS: Included necrotic wounds with superinfection of the right and left medial thighs as well as the left hip and right anterior thigh and abdominal wall.

INDICATIONS FOR PROCEDURE: The patient is an unfortunate 38-year-old superobese female who was transferred to XXX XXXX in the middle of August for a necrotizing soft tissue infection of the abdominal wall. She underwent multiple debridements and subsequently had improvement in her wounds. However, after being transferred to the floor had required transfer back to the ICU for code met for sepsis. Examination of her wounds revealed evidence of purulence and bacterial superinfection. In combination with the patient's altered mental status, there was a very real concern that this represented an aggressive necrotizing soft tissue infection that would be rapidly fatal if not managed aggressively. Attempts to reach the patient's family were unsuccessful and the patient's altered mental status rendered her unable to consent.

PROCEDURE IN DETAIL: The patient was brought to the operating room and placed on the operating room table in supine position. Sequential compression hose were unable to be placed on her lower extremities due to the location of the wounds. Therefore, blood pressure cuff being cycled frequently was placed on her arm. Care was taken to prep and drape the patient in the best fashion we could. Appropriate IV antibiotics were administered per SCIP protocol. The abdomen, both legs, and hip were prepped and draped into the field in the usual sterile fashion. After call to order was performed, we began debriding the necrotic tissue using a combination of Bovie electrocautery and LigaSure for hemostasis. Unfortunately, there was poor perfusion to all of this adipose tissue with very little bleeding despite aggressive debridement. We did our best to debride back to viable tissue and to excise all of the necrotic portions of the wound. After debridement was complete and the specimens were passed off the field for pathology and culture, we then proceeded to copiously irrigate all the wounds using IrriSept solution and to ensure hemostasis. Our WOCN colleagues did come to the operating room to assist us with dressing these large wounds and this was performed very carefully. After irrigating with IrriSept, it was decided that in order to manage the fluid sequestration from these wounds, negative pressure dressings would be required. Due to the patient's sepsis after incising and draining these infected necrotic wounds, it was elected to leave her intubated due to her vasopressor requirement, but also because her dressing changes would likely require anesthesia. The patient was taken back to the Intensive Care Unit at the completion of the procedure, intubated, and requiring a significant amount of vasopressor support. This patient remains critically ill with a poor prognosis.


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## wisibyusha (Feb 10, 2020)

As far as I understood the scenario, the documented depth is skin and subcutaneous so we don't go further than that because we take whatever is documented. In the code description if you notice the dimensions are given in square centimeters, so we take the dimensions A x B. e.g. when we multiply the areas from the left leg we get 13 x 6= 78sqcm
23.5 x 6 = 157.45 sqcm
34.5 x 12 = 414 sqcm
total = 649.45 sqcm
From this you code 11042 for the first 20sqcm
649.45 -20 = 629.45
we have 31 whole 20's in 629.45 and 9.45 left over since in the code description it says.... additional 20 sqcm or PART THEREOF so our unit will add up to 32. Therefore  for the left leg you will code 11042, 11045 x 32. I'm sure you can do for the right leg. For abdominal you take 11005.


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## Tonyj (Feb 10, 2020)

wisibyusha said:


> As far as I understood the scenario, the documented depth is skin and subcutaneous so we don't go further than that because we take whatever is documented. In the code description if you notice the dimensions are given in square centimeters, so we take the dimensions A x B. e.g. when we multiply the areas from the left leg we get 13 x 6= 78sqcm
> 23.5 x 6 = 157.45 sqcm
> 34.5 x 12 = 414 sqcm
> total = 649.45 sqcm
> ...


Thanks for the clarification!


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## fwnewbie (Feb 15, 2020)

Woot!  I had the right codes.


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## Tonyj (Feb 18, 2020)

fwnewbie said:


> Woot!  I had the right codes.


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## tcosborne (Feb 25, 2020)

I'm interested to see how that is reimbursed.  CMS only allows 12 units for CPT 11045. Has any one is had challenges in getting the entire debridement reimbursed?  If so, I'd like to know how.


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## tcosborne (Feb 25, 2020)

Tonyj said:


>


I'm interested to see how that is reimbursed. CMS only allows 12 units for CPT 11045. Has any one is had challenges in getting the entire debridement reimbursed? If so, I'd like to know how.


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## fwnewbie (Feb 25, 2020)

Then, would it be coded as an excision?  But it qualifies as "debridement" since the tissue is contaminated/necrotizing....


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## tcosborne (Feb 25, 2020)

fwnewbie said:


> Then, would it be coded as an excision?  But it qualifies as "debridement" since the tissue is contaminated/necrotizing....


I would still code it as debridement.  I know we have trouble getting reimbursement for units over the allowed MUE.  I would say it would depend on the payer.


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