# Psych codes vs E/M codes



## sasharea (Mar 24, 2009)

A question was brought up in our clinic about billing with E/M codes instead of using psych codes. To me I am under the understanding as a coder that ethically we need to be using psych codes where approproiate. We are looking at taking on another MD from a different state who said their clinic uses E/M codes instead of psych codes? Does anyone else do this? Is this something that we can do? I am looking for any help you can give or any coding workshops for MH. Please let me know. I am on a time crunch to weigh the pros and cons of each and need as much help as I can get. Thank you all


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## 1073358 (Mar 24, 2009)

The providers need to bill the most appropriate code to the service they perform. If they are doing therapy, they need to bill therapy codes. If they are doing med mgmt, they need to bill that code. If they are documenting their services appropriately, there should not be a reason to have to use the EM codes very often. We did use them for a little while because we thought that was the best route, but it was a PITA!! We received a lot of denials because of psych dx with medical code, claims going to medical insurance rather than the pt's mental health plan, a lot would deny because of the providers specialty ( basically they wanted to see psych codes)

We were using EM's for a provider who was basically doing med mgt, but we used it because she wasn't necessarily making major med changes.. after learning more, we decided we could still accurately use 90862 and went back to that.

What is their reason behind wanting to bill EM codes vs psych?


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## kevbshields (Mar 24, 2009)

The basic determinant is not choice, so much as the purpose of the services.

If medication management is key, then 90862 is appropriate--as example.  Also, the three (3) key components (or for established patients, at least two [2]) must be met in order to code for an E/M service.  

In the event your providers are performing psychotherapy, those are coded to that section (90804-90829).  I would certainly hesitate from varying from the prescribed codes.  Although I have no "objective" source, I'd certainly expect an external audit to question deviations from the norm.  If I were the auditor, I would certainly question that practice.


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## sasharea (Mar 24, 2009)

we have always used the psych codes for the services unless we could not bill a psych code then we would on occasion use an E/M code. We are looking at all of our options. Does anyone know if payers usually reemburse lower with MH Dx on and E/M code? I think they usualy pay about 50% of what they would have allowed?? but I am not sure on that either.


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## deyoung (Mar 24, 2009)

I never heard of payers reimbursing at a lower rate when using a psych Dx with E/M. We haven't seen any denials or lower reimbursements. 

We primarly see inpatients. We use psych codes and E/M based on which is most appropriate for the service. I agree with the above responses...i.e. if doing psychotherapy use psychotherapy codes, if doing med mgmt 90862, etc. We use the subsequent hospital E/M codes when the Dr is not doing psychotherapy/med mgmt. We also use the consult codes because we provide a consult service. 

If the visit is more than 50% counseling/coordination of care you can choose your E/M based on time (please review the CPT guidelines for more info on choosing the appropriate level).


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## 1073358 (Mar 24, 2009)

I agree with Deyoung..we use EM's as well inpatient ie 99231-3 and 99251-5


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## sasharea (Mar 24, 2009)

thank you all for your great feedback. this made me feel more confident in how I have been billing these services. MH is something that there really isn't a lot of training in. If anyone knows of any MH billing or coding courses please let me know.


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## 1073358 (Mar 25, 2009)

There is not much out there for seminars. I went to one, and it wasn't even all that helpful. 

Of all the resources I have found, this board actaully seems to be one of the best places I have gotten answers from, so for now, I would encourage you to keep posting here!


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## Pam Brooks (Mar 25, 2009)

The E&M codes would never be appropriate for non-physician providers (excluding medical nurse practitioners).  With Masters' level clinicians, LICSWs, Ph.Ds and Psy.Ds, you must stick to the mental health codes in the Medicine section of CPT, depending on scope of practice.  Psychiatrists can use E&M only if medically necessary, but the nature of the presenting problem and the intent of the visit should drive the CPT code.  Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC


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## cateyes856 (Mar 25, 2009)

*Questions remain*

I am relatively new to our practice and the providers in our geriatrics center are entrenched in using E&M codes. We are not having problems with reimbursement but I am concerned about their documentation. They say they were cleared by compliance years ago, but I am still requesting that compliance audit a few charts so I can be assured that they are billing for the services they are providing-now.

I am planning to attend an inexpensive Coding and Billing for Mental Health Services conference in May. Check out their website to see if you are interested: www.crosscountryeducation.com. they have 4 sites in Tenn, Alabama and Atlanta.


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## 1073358 (Mar 26, 2009)

I went to a cross country seminar 2 years ago. It wasn't too bad. Come with a list of your issues and when you are there, see if you can pass around a sheet of paper and let everyone put their emails on it. You can create a networking system that way so you have others to ask questions of. I did and it worked good.


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## rolew1 (Apr 24, 2009)

There are EM codes for behavioral health providers to use.  They are apart of your regular psychotherapy codes.  Review codes 90805, 90807, 90809.  If it's an interactive service with EM you would use codes 90811, 90813 and 90815.  These are used to specify that evaluation and management services were provided in addition to psychotherapy.  Hopes this helps.


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## cateyes856 (May 29, 2009)

Our docs are seeing geriatrics patients and are doing a physical exam of sorts. The psychotherapy codes are not appropriate. Thanks anyway.

I did go to the seminar and I was not disappointed. I learned quite a few things that I am checking out with our compliance department.


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## C.orona (May 31, 2009)

*Time based codes vs level coding*

I am coding for mental health and I am glad to find this post. Here is one of the concern I am up against. Psych codes are mainly time based codes 
(90804, 90806, etc) What is happening in my clinic recently is that physicians are not documenting how much time was actually spent with patient so we are instructed to level. My question is, is this correct procedure?  

I code for DOD. Any feedback would be appreiciated.


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## 1073358 (Jun 1, 2009)

C.orona said:


> I am coding for mental health and I am glad to find this post. Here is one of the concern I am up against. Psych codes are mainly time based codes
> (90804, 90806, etc) What is happening in my clinic recently is that physicians are not documenting how much time was actually spent with patient so we are instructed to level. My question is, is this correct procedure?
> 
> I code for DOD. Any feedback would be appreiciated.



If your providers are doing psychotherapy but not documenting the time, they need to be educated on documenting the time. The key is educating them on what key things need to be documented to bill.

I am not sure what you mean by DOD


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## deyoung (Jun 1, 2009)

(DOD = Department of Defense)

Time needs to be documented for psychotherapy. I would educate the providers on this. If they use a template it would be a good idea to have an area for them to remind them to document time.


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## jgarcia619 (Jan 20, 2010)

*Addt'l Question*

Can anyone helo me regarding these couple questions my psych MD has. He is refering to the elimination of consult codes

1.       Do the old rules apply, but we now just use different codes to bill consults or do we use the rules for the e/m codes now used for consults      

a.       For example, getting documentation of the consult request, no shared e/m billing for consult codes)

2.       Can we, as psychiatrists, still bill a new (as opposed to established) e/m code for consultations despite the patient being seen by another physician (Palliative Med) from the same practice as we could under the old rules?


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## 1073358 (Jan 21, 2010)

jgarcia619 said:


> Can anyone helo me regarding these couple questions my psych MD has. He is refering to the elimination of consult codes
> 
> 1.       Do the old rules apply, but we now just use different codes to bill consults or do we use the rules for the e/m codes now used for consults
> 
> ...



1) You bill to the rules of the code you are billing. If you are billing a 99215 for example, you do not have to have the 3R's documented, but since the intent of the service was to obtain an opinion, I would encourage them to still report back to the requesting even though you don't have to show in the note you did so.
2) I think you should be able to bill new patient since it is different specialties


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