# Whinning new coders? I was shocked.



## Butler

I was looking on the AAPC web page today and was shocked what I had read on a post from a long time coder in the field. 
I was searching for words of encouragement, but found a very colorful post.  

A coder in the field had said that she had hoped that the "Whining" from newly certified coders stop. She had said that most employers would NOT hire someone that had a whole "3 months" of education. That without us having done said homework should not complain about having felt we had been taken advantage of and her words were "and why shouldn't they take your money". The sobering thing is she was not the only long time coder and hiring professional that were posting on that particular thread.  

Has anyone seen this thread?  I wanted to find out if this person would have felt differently if a new coder had also taken additional classes in hopes of changing careers and finding a job in coding. 

I have taken additional classes and wanted an honest opinion. I have also applied for such positions Unit Secretary, PAS, PSR, Receptionist, Customer Service, etc in the medical field. I have office experience, but no medical office experience.  

This was not the encouragement I was looking for from a member. Thank your for your candor. I am wondering if I have truly invested in a costly experiment and should just take my lumps and move on.


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## andyrobin

I think it really depends on who is doing the hiring, and the first impression you make with them.  I hired a person that had no medical experience at all to be my front office receptionist.  She dressed professionally for the interview, and appeared smart.  She also stated that one of her future goals was to take some coding classes.  This young lady excelled and was promoted to our investigational study department.  The economy is really bad right now, and there are a lot of people to choose from.   That will not always be the case.  If I were you I would keep up with my coding skills and keep applying.  Things will get better.  

Robin King, CPC


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## Millface

*New Coders*

I agree with Robin 100% you might not be able to hire in directly as a coder but I would keep up the coding skills. I currently have two inexperinced coders working for me that I feel very lucky to have not because of their skills/knowledge but rather their work ethic and attitudes-both were front office personal!


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## btadlock1

Butler said:


> I was looking on the AAPC web page today and was shocked what I had read on a post from a long time coder in the field.
> I was searching for words of encouragement, but found a very colorful post.
> 
> A coder in the field had said that she had hoped that the "Whining" from newly certified coders stop. She had said that most employers would NOT hire someone that had a whole "3 months" of education. That without us having done said homework should not complain about having felt we had been taken advantage of and her words were "and why shouldn't they take your money". The sobering thing is she was not the only long time coder and hiring professional that were posting on that particular thread.
> 
> Has anyone seen this thread?  I wanted to find out if this person would have felt differently if a new coder had also taken additional classes in hopes of changing careers and finding a job in coding.
> 
> 
> I have taken additional classes and wanted an honest opinion. I have also applied for such positions Unit Secretary, PAS, PSR, Receptionist, Customer Service, etc in the medical field. I have office experience, but no medical office experience.
> 
> This was not the encouragement I was looking for from a member. Thank your for your candor. I am wondering if I have truly invested in a costly experiment and should just take my lumps and move on.



I think that the schools have a tendency to provide unrealistic expectations about students' employment prospects, once they graduate; and that, as a result, many newly certified coders feel _entitled_ to coding jobs, and are given a rude awakening when they don't land them right off the bat. I see the same thing happen with certain collegiate-degree fields (Mass Comm, for example) - new grads become frustrated that all of their time was "wasted" getting an education, since no one will hire them without experience. 

Look, you have to have some experience somewhere; and if you don't, you can't feel like you're too good to start at the bottom to get it. That's "Having a Career 101", for any profession. No one's entitled to respect - you've got to earn it; and there's a serious difference between being a reliable (eg, experienced) coder, and merely passing a multiple choice test on the subject. It takes practice to build skills, and they want to know you've really gotten it, ahead of time.

I can see how you would have interpreted a gripe as being overly harsh, but I've also read dozens upon _dozens_ of posts from people who are "too good for filing", who have no more experience coding, than the filing clerk at the place they want to work - they're frustrated, and absolutely baffled by their inability to get a coding position - it _does_ get old to read, and is discouraging to those who don't mind rolling up their sleeves in a 'mundane' position, to get their foot in the door.

If you can't get a job without experience, then get some experience any way that you can. Intern, or use the AAPC's resources (like Code-A-Rounds), to get the "A" off of your credential, and keep trying. If you don't give up, you'll eventually succeed, and it'll all have been worthwhile. 
If you think that someone should just hand you a job, simply because you completed your course work, then I'd say yes, you have totally wasted your money and time, because the world simply doesn't work that way. So, I guess it's subjective. 

P.S. - Office experience is good enough for medical office experience in most cases. If you can use a computer and Microsoft Office programs, you're usually qualified. Don't sell yourself short - you're on the right track. Good luck!


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## kevbshields

Too, we must recognize that "schools" are not wholly responsible for the impression students are given.  While I've heard radio ads that tell folks, "you can become a medical coder in as little as 9 months," our students are cautioned that is not always the case.  We recognize that continued education and experience are required in order to become masters of our profession.

Employability is available to those who are flexible and adaptive in their job searches.  Recruiters and advisors at schools might indicate to students that gaining a job in the field is easier than is realistic.  However, instructors, professors and preceptors should clarify.  I do not know how many do, but can attest that not only do I explain to my students how to realistically approach the job search, I also demonstrate this to them.  We pull up local job search engines and review the jobs available which align to their skill sets, without a job title of "coder" or "biller".  Usually they are amazed that so many jobs are available to them on an entry level.

Schools have an obligation to educate, according to the chosen field of study.  They, too, have an obligation to support success in students.  However, students must research their field and strive to understand the nuances and qualifications for that field.  Listening to others without researching is short-sighted.

When I decided to pursue coding as a profession, every effort was made to gain information from sources like AAPC and professionals already in the field.  Without it, I'd have unintentionally limited myself by not fully understanding this field.  Critical conversations are necessary with our new members, with apprentice and novice coders, as well as students.  

Lastly, to those struggling to obtain employment, be ready and willing to accept entry level positions that support your career goal.  In a capitolistic society, employment is not an entitlement.  Responsibility for gaining employment lands with the applicant, not the school that educated a student, not with the professional associations and not with an employer.

Best of luck to all.


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## ajs

kevbshields said:


> Too, we must recognize that "schools" are not wholly responsible for the impression students are given.  While I've heard radio ads that tell folks, "you can become a medical coder in as little as 9 months," our students are cautioned that is not always the case.  We recognize that continued education and experience are required in order to become masters of our profession.
> 
> Employability is available to those who are flexible and adaptive in their job searches.  Recruiters and advisors at schools might indicate to students that gaining a job in the field is easier than is realistic.  However, instructors, professors and preceptors should clarify.  I do not know how many do, but can attest that not only do I explain to my students how to realistically approach the job search, I also demonstrate this to them.  We pull up local job search engines and review the jobs available which align to their skill sets, without a job title of "coder" or "biller".  Usually they are amazed that so many jobs are available to them on an entry level.
> 
> Schools have an obligation to educate, according to the chosen field of study.  They, too, have an obligation to support success in students.  However, students must research their field and strive to understand the nuances and qualifications for that field.  Listening to others without researching is short-sighted.
> 
> When I decided to pursue coding as a profession, every effort was made to gain information from sources like AAPC and professionals already in the field.  Without it, I'd have unintentionally limited myself by not fully understanding this field.  Critical conversations are necessary with our new members, with apprentice and novice coders, as well as students.
> 
> Lastly, to those struggling to obtain employment, be ready and willing to accept entry level positions that support your career goal.  In a capitolistic society, employment is not an entitlement.  Responsibility for gaining employment lands with the applicant, not the school that educated a student, not with the professional associations and not with an employer.
> 
> Best of luck to all.



Well-stated.  Personal responsibility is too often overlooked when folks want to start placing blame.  Ultimately, we are the masters of our own fate; good, bad or indifferent.


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## btadlock1

kevbshields said:


> Too, we must recognize that "schools" are not wholly responsible for the impression students are given.  While I've heard radio ads that tell folks, "you can become a medical coder in as little as 9 months," our students are cautioned that is not always the case.  We recognize that continued education and experience are required in order to become masters of our profession.
> 
> Employability is available to those who are flexible and adaptive in their job searches.  Recruiters and advisors at schools might indicate to students that gaining a job in the field is easier than is realistic.  However, instructors, professors and preceptors should clarify.  I do not know how many do, but can attest that not only do I explain to my students how to realistically approach the job search, I also demonstrate this to them.  We pull up local job search engines and review the jobs available which align to their skill sets, without a job title of "coder" or "biller".  Usually they are amazed that so many jobs are available to them on an entry level.
> 
> Schools have an obligation to educate, according to the chosen field of study.  They, too, have an obligation to support success in students.  However, students must research their field and strive to understand the nuances and qualifications for that field.  Listening to others without researching is short-sighted.
> 
> When I decided to pursue coding as a profession, every effort was made to gain information from sources like AAPC and professionals already in the field.  Without it, I'd have unintentionally limited myself by not fully understanding this field.  Critical conversations are necessary with our new members, with apprentice and novice coders, as well as students.
> 
> Lastly, to those struggling to obtain employment, be ready and willing to accept entry level positions that support your career goal.  In a capitolistic society, employment is not an entitlement.  Responsibility for gaining employment lands with the applicant, not the school that educated a student, not with the professional associations and not with an employer.
> 
> Best of luck to all.



Yes, I probably should have specified "_some _schools", rather than "the schools" - and it's certainly not my intent to try to pass the buck off onto the educators...although, those commercials are precisely what I'd had in mind, in mentioning it. (Don't forget - _someone_ had to pay for those commercials...I can't really picture the schools behind them, as innocent victims in their own misleading advertising campaigns ) 

Anyways, the point I'm making, is that: I can understand where some of the disappointment is coming from; however, just because the outcome wasn't exactly what someone had in mind, doesn't necessarily mean that their time in getting an education was a complete waste.

I completely agree that the fate of each person's career is in their own hands, whether or not they choose to believe it. So believe it! "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't...You're right."


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## drobert

It is sad to hear from some in this field state that those of us who are without jobs should stop our whining, and should realize that we are not any more experienced than a file clerk, when we have gone back to school, paid money for coding classes and organization memberships and exams, and meetings gathering knowledge and CEUs.

I think  the coding industry should open its arms to support those who are eager to code and who thought enough of the field to invest time and money to educate themselves and obtain credentials.  Show that those credentials are really worth the money and time spent to get, and start a mentorship, or put ads up seeking newly certified coders.   

 Remember that those of us who are returning to school and getting certified are doing so to get ourselves on a path to employment.  But all the training in the world will not do any good if the industry does not hire.


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## btadlock1

drobert said:


> It is sad to hear from some in this field state that those of us who are without jobs should stop our whining, and should realize that we are not any more experienced than a file clerk, when we have gone back to school, paid money for coding classes and organization memberships and exams, and meetings gathering knowledge and CEUs.
> 
> I think  the coding industry should open its arms to support those who are eager to code and who thought enough of the field to invest time and money to educate themselves and obtain credentials.  Show that those credentials are really worth the money and time spent to get, and start a mentorship, or put ads up seeking newly certified coders.
> 
> Remember that those of us who are returning to school and getting certified are doing so to get ourselves on a path to employment.  But all the training in the world will not do any good if the industry does not hire.



That's the point though; you're not spending the time and money to become an* instant coder*; you're spending it to become a coding *apprentice*.

No one is going to give you a homerun, just because you made it to first base. It's not that easy; if you're not willing to accept the fact that passing the test is just step one, and that you need practice to be hired as a coder, then good luck finding a job. You'll need it.

Anyone can make it in this industry, and can gain the experience they need to get to where they want to go, but you* have *to be willing to start where you're able to. If that means you're a file clerk at first while you learn, then that's how it has to be. Even doctors have to complete a residency period before they're considered employable as_ doctors_. No one's immuned to the 'experience' aspect of this field - the credential wouldn't mean anything, if it didn't represent true professionals, and you're not a true professional, if you've never actually done the job.


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## ajs

drobert said:


> It is sad to hear from some in this field state that those of us who are without jobs should stop our whining, and should realize that we are not any more experienced than a file clerk, when we have gone back to school, paid money for coding classes and organization memberships and exams, and meetings gathering knowledge and CEUs.
> 
> I think  the coding industry should open its arms to support those who are eager to code and who thought enough of the field to invest time and money to educate themselves and obtain credentials.  Show that those credentials are really worth the money and time spent to get, and start a mentorship, or put ads up seeking newly certified coders.
> 
> Remember that those of us who are returning to school and getting certified are doing so to get ourselves on a path to employment.  But all the training in the world will not do any good if the industry does not hire.



I love to, and do, welcome newly certified coders into this field.  Please realize this is not an industry, it is a profession.  Unfortunately, coders don't hire coders, doctors and human resource directors hire coders.  Just like in a lot of other professions, they want to see that you know how to do this job in the real world, not just the classroom.  

For some who have been working in this profession for many years, it can be hard to see the "newly certified" out there vying for the same jobs we are.  With the economy in turmoil there are fewer jobs, but more people applying for them.  Competition is tough no matter how much experience you have!

I have been in the trenches since the mid-1980s and worked through the E/M coding changes in the mid-1990s. Now we are all gearing up for the big ICD-10 changes in 2013.  I got certified on my own through many years of on-the-job training.  There were no "coding training classes" with promises of gainful employment; just yearly seminars, bulletins from the various agencies, and trial and error.  We learned when the new books came out every year.  I paid for my own exams and CEUs for a lot of years before employers started seeing the benefit of helping keep the certifications going.

So, I do welcome the new coders, but please realize that it takes a lot of hard work to get to where you see some of us "certified coders" out here on the job.  As a mentor and President of my local chapter, I have assisted a few "newly certified coders" in finding that first job,or moving into a better job.  I am always willing to help where I can.

I have been working in this profession for 25+ years, and since I seem to have a knack for it, I will probably be here until my brain shuts down.  I wish you luck in your search for a meaningful coding job.  It can be a rewarding profession, but it is not for everyone.  And please be patient with those of us who have been out here for a while, sometimes the world is a scary place!


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## alsmdl

I just passed received the new Coding Edge in the mail. As you know it list those who have passed for credentials. A shift has taken place since I first passed my test in 1999. Now there is 1 page and 1 column for Newly Credentialed. There are 3 entire pages for the apprentices. It used to be the reverse. I believe it is because there is so much incorrect information out in the world. That without any prior medical employment you can learn how to code and go out and get a job. Its not all there is to being a coder then someone who can look up codes. There are a multitude of insurance regulations to navigate, being a resource to the billing staff as well as the physicians that hire you. They expect more for the salary they pay out then someone new in the field with no other experience. I feel badly for the new coders who did not have a clear understanding of how a Medical office runs and what is expected from coders. Ill Medicaid alone VS St Louis Medicaid has different rules and criteria that as coding staff our employers expect us to know. I could go on for days all that coding truly encompasses but that is why having a minimum of 2 yrs experience is needed. Good Luck to all of you. Jobs are hard to find these days for everyone. Perhaps try to start out as a receptionist, medical records, or billing dept to get your foot in the door. You worked hard to get your credentials so don't give up now, maybe just understand all that they want from us.


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## kevbshields

Educators rarely have any say-so in how their services are marketed.  That is unfortunate, but some folks in recruiting and marketing are making those decisions.  Some schools intentionally mislead, I've seen that, even posted comments on the forums here related to that topic.  Most not-for-profit schools will not embody that type of recruitment effort.

I can recall my own disappointment at not being granted certain jobs for which I applied.  That is really just part of being an adult, accepting your own limitations and stategizing through obstacles.  It seems to me that the job searching techniques aren't being taught or learned.  I'm confounded on why.  Regardless, the expressed frustration at not having opportunities in the field is relatable.  Unfortunately, professional association members can only recommend changes in approach and share personal experiences.  The majority of us are no longer hiring officials, never were or aren't yet.

In my experiences, coders do have some element of control, usually if they are practice managers or involved in the hiring process.  Human resources rarely has the final say--unfortunately, HR doesn't normally know enough to make good decisions without other input.  If we educate our physicians (as members of their staff), they may be more willing to follow our leadership.  It's a good point that new coders are competing for the same jobs as some experienced coders.  That means that both parties have to deal with all the implications the exist in that reality.

Finally, it seems the tides are changing for non-certified coders.  Whether employers sponsor the venture or not, I do believe it will be requisite in the very near future.  Not only that, I believe multiple credentials will be required for some of the higher-paying opportunities in consulting and auditing.  The slant is already visible.  With that being the case, non-credentialed coders may find themselves pushed into other roles or obligated to attain a certification--even if they've years of experience.  Hopefully that will create a few vacancies for which our apprentice coders may fill.


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## Butler

I think that the schools have a tendency to provide unrealistic expectations about students' employment prospects, once they graduate; and that, as a result, many newly certified coders feel entitled to coding jobs, and are given a rude awakening when they don't land them right off the bat. I see the same thing happen with certain collegiate-degree fields (Mass Comm, for example) - new grads become frustrated that all of their time was "wasted" getting an education, since no one will hire them without experience. 

Look, you have to have some experience somewhere; and if you don't, you can't feel like you're too good to start at the bottom to get it. That's "Having a Career 101", for any profession. No one's entitled to respect - you've got to earn it; and there's a serious difference between being a reliable (eg, experienced) coder, and merely passing a multiple choice test on the subject. It takes practice to build skills, and they want to know you've really gotten it, ahead of time.

I can see how you would have interpreted a gripe as being overly harsh, but I've also read dozens upon dozens of posts from people who are "too good for filing", who have no more experience coding, than the filing clerk at the place they want to work - they're frustrated, and absolutely baffled by their inability to get a coding position - it does get old to read, and is discouraging to those who don't mind rolling up their sleeves in a 'mundane' position, to get their foot in the door.

If you can't get a job without experience, then get some experience any way that you can. Intern, or use the AAPC's resources (like Code-A-Rounds), to get the "A" off of your credential, and keep trying. If you don't give up, you'll eventually succeed, and it'll all have been worthwhile. 
If you think that someone should just hand you a job, simply because you completed your course work, then I'd say yes, you have totally wasted your money and time, because the world simply doesn't work that way. So, I guess it's subjective. 

P.S. - Office experience is good enough for medical office experience in most cases. If you can use a computer and Microsoft Office programs, you're usually qualified. Don't sell yourself short - you're on the right track. Good luck!
__________________
Brandi Tadlock, CPC, CPC-P, CPMA, CPCO


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brandi,
Thank you for your advice. I have 8 1/2 years of office experience in personal lines insurance (auto, home, motorcycle, recreation vechicles, etc.) as a Risk Management Associate and I was hoping that would show that I was a serious employee.  I will keep up on my skills : )

Dianne.


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## BJanePla

Look I live in Tampa Fl. Medical Billing & Coders here over satuarated. There are too many of us. I gruaduated in 2/2010 and can't get a job even in Medical Records or as an ROI, although I had wanted Billing.  I am also a certified Unit Secretary and have been an ad Administrative Assistant/Executive Assistant in the past and I cannot get any interviews. I did have 2 interviews in 2 years and the person (s) hired was one very young-with no experience (about age 22); no work experience at all; the other had 5 yrs experience from out of State and moves to Tampa and takes a job from us.  I am a CPC-A and they did away with the special training to remove the A. I am moving on to another line of work, as I have to work. Now I am looking for a Sitter, or babysitter or nanny position because I have to work; and I am in my early 60's.  Had I known I could not get a job as a MBC without 2-3 yrs experience I would not have taken this course! I don't put all my experience on my resume, but can't get my foot in the door. I blame schools for grabbing the money and not letting students know there is no work until 2013! I am not renewing my membership and giving up my CPC-A, I wasted the last 3 years of my life. I interview very well and am polished & well dressed (had to be as an Exe Assistant). But the bottom line there are no jobs in Tampa, FL and if there are a few, they want the very young ones with no no no experience. Some Coders I have spoken to are not even certified, yet they have been working for years, and employers could care less about being certified. This is not whinning, this is realty, esp if one needs work & money, and wastes years getting retrained for the job market.


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## juliabiz@hotmail.com

I have been reading the previous quotes with interest. I have taken the CPC exam twice in the last six months, and came just short of passing. I was angry at first. I am working in a field where I had experience from previous jobs. I truly enjoy coding, and am not going to give up. I keep applying for jobs in the medical field, and have had some interviews, but to no avail. I  will retake the exam in the future, and pass at some point. I am not certified at this point, but will be someday.


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## drobert

btadlock1 said:


> That's the point though; you're not spending the time and money to become an* instant coder*; you're spending it to become a coding *apprentice*.
> 
> No one is going to give you a homerun, just because you made it to first base. It's not that easy; if you're not willing to accept the fact that passing the test is just step one, and that you need practice to be hired as a coder, then good luck finding a job. You'll need it.
> 
> Anyone can make it in this industry, and can gain the experience they need to get to where they want to go, but you* have *to be willing to start where you're able to. If that means you're a file clerk at first while you learn, then that's how it has to be. Even doctors have to complete a residency period before they're considered employable as_ doctors_. No one's immuned to the 'experience' aspect of this field - the credential wouldn't mean anything, if it didn't represent true professionals, and you're not a true professional, if you've never actually done the job.



I am eager to get the practice that it takes to be hired as a coder.  Where do I get the practice that the profession will recognize?    there ar residency programs for doctors where they gain experience in practicing medicine.   I want to gain experience in billing and coding, not filing.


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## drobert

ajs said:


> I love to, and do, welcome newly certified coders into this field.  Please realize this is not an industry, it is a profession.  Unfortunately, coders don't hire coders, doctors and human resource directors hire coders.  Just like in a lot of other professions, they want to see that you know how to do this job in the real world, not just the classroom.
> 
> For some who have been working in this profession for many years, it can be hard to see the "newly certified" out there vying for the same jobs we are.  With the economy in turmoil there are fewer jobs, but more people applying for them.  Competition is tough no matter how much experience you have!
> 
> I have been in the trenches since the mid-1980s and worked through the E/M coding changes in the mid-1990s. Now we are all gearing up for the big ICD-10 changes in 2013.  I got certified on my own through many years of on-the-job training.  There were no "coding training classes" with promises of gainful employment; just yearly seminars, bulletins from the various agencies, and trial and error.  We learned when the new books came out every year.  I paid for my own exams and CEUs for a lot of years before employers started seeing the benefit of helping keep the certifications going.
> 
> So, I do welcome the new coders, but please realize that it takes a lot of hard work to get to where you see some of us "certified coders" out here on the job.  As a mentor and President of my local chapter, I have assisted a few "newly certified coders" in finding that first job,or moving into a better job.  I am always willing to help where I can.
> 
> I have been working in this profession for 25+ years, and since I seem to have a knack for it, I will probably be here until my brain shuts down.  I wish you luck in your search for a meaningful coding job.  It can be a rewarding profession, but it is not for everyone.  And please be patient with those of us who have been out here for a while, sometimes the world is a scary place!



i appreciate your honesty.   and I am not looking to replace someone with years of coding experience.  I couldn't touch that.   but I am disheartened by the lack of direction to start out in this profession.   May I ask , what would you say are reasonable to expect first jobs, for someone who has 20 plus years of office experience (non medical), strong computer skills, database experience,  and has a cpc-a certification?


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## espressoguy

I obtained a coding position with no healthcare experience about 9 months after I got certified. I'll be the first to admit that I was a little lucky. After 30+ years in sales, I decided to make a career change. My wife is a manager at one of the local hospitals and she suggested I look into coding. She knew the coding manager and the coding director and was reasonably certain she could get me in the door. Towards the end of my studies at the nearby community college she got me an externship at her hospital. When an entry level coding position opened up several months later I got an interview, but was not offered the job.

Fast forward to this past September, and I got a call from another nearby hospital and, long story short, I was offered the position and started on October 3. I was one of three new coders hired within a six week period, although I was the only one without experience. Once I got started I quickly realized that real world coding bears little resemblance to classroom coding. As someone mentioned upthread, it's not just about looking up codes. My supervisor and 2 of the experienced coders have spent a lot of time bringing me up to speed. There are not a lot of organizations that are able to invest that much time in a newbie. It's easier to hire experience.

As far as being sold a bill of goods by my school, it didn't happen. I considered programs at 4 local community colleges and I talked with advisors at 2 of them. One of them actually tried to discourage me.

I know how disheartening it can be looking for work. However, I am living proof that a person without previous healthcare experience can get a coding job. There is another poster on this forum who also got a coding job without experience. I believe the in-coming president of one of the local Seattle area chapters is a CPC-A who got his first job without experience. The other day my wife mentioned that her hospital has 2 openings for Coder I's. Under minimum requirements it says, "New grads welcome."

All I can say is be encouraged by my story. Don't give up.


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## theresa.dix@tennova.com

ajs said:


> I love to, and do, welcome newly certified coders into this field.  Please realize this is not an industry, it is a profession.  Unfortunately, coders don't hire coders, doctors and human resource directors hire coders.  Just like in a lot of other professions, they want to see that you know how to do this job in the real world, not just the classroom.
> 
> For some who have been working in this profession for many years, it can be hard to see the "newly certified" out there vying for the same jobs we are.  With the economy in turmoil there are fewer jobs, but more people applying for them.  Competition is tough no matter how much experience you have!
> 
> I have been in the trenches since the mid-1980s and worked through the E/M coding changes in the mid-1990s. Now we are all gearing up for the big ICD-10 changes in 2013.  I got certified on my own through many years of on-the-job training.  There were no "coding training classes" with promises of gainful employment; just yearly seminars, bulletins from the various agencies, and trial and error.  We learned when the new books came out every year.  I paid for my own exams and CEUs for a lot of years before employers started seeing the benefit of helping keep the certifications going.
> 
> So, I do welcome the new coders, but please realize that it takes a lot of hard work to get to where you see some of us "certified coders" out here on the job.  As a mentor and President of my local chapter, I have assisted a few "newly certified coders" in finding that first job,or moving into a better job.  I am always willing to help where I can.
> 
> I have been working in this profession for 25+ years, and since I seem to have a knack for it, I will probably be here until my brain shuts down.  I wish you luck in your search for a meaningful coding job.  It can be a rewarding profession, but it is not for everyone.  And please be patient with those of us who have been out here for a while, sometimes the world is a scary place!



Hello,
 I usually do not post on any subjects except the cardiology discussion. I just happen to see the title of this forum" new coders should stop whining". I want to add my 2 cents. I know what it is like to be a new coder as you can see. All of you new coders should listen to the experienced coders taking the time to post here. Brandi and the others. What they are saying is the truth. Keep on trying and learning, you will earn a job in the coding field, but it does take time to gain experience. When I was a newly credentialed coder starting out I thought I knew alot about coding. Not so. It takes alot of time and work. Dont give up or change your profession it is worth the effort.


----------



## lisefour

*New coders*

Being new to coding myself -- I will tell you that getting that first job is not an easy one.  But if you are willing to volunteer at different facilities and get  your certifications, there are people out there willing to hire you.  I was fortunate because an ER Billing facility looked to our school where people had just passed their CPC and were hiring new coders.  It is a great field to be working in -- don't give up


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## ajs

drobert said:


> i appreciate your honesty.   and I am not looking to replace someone with years of coding experience.  I couldn't touch that.   but I am disheartened by the lack of direction to start out in this profession.   May I ask , what would you say are reasonable to expect first jobs, for someone who has 20 plus years of office experience (non medical), strong computer skills, database experience,  and has a cpc-a certification?



With your background, look into the HIM field.  Health information management is growing and there are IT people needed who also know coding.


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## ChrisZim

btadlock1 said:


> I think that the schools have a tendency to provide unrealistic expectations about students' employment prospects, once they graduate; and that, as a result, many newly certified coders feel _entitled_ to coding jobs, and are given a rude awakening when they don't land them right off the bat. I see the same thing happen with certain collegiate-degree fields (Mass Comm, for example) - new grads become frustrated that all of their time was "wasted" getting an education, since no one will hire them without experience.
> 
> Look, you have to have some experience somewhere; and if you don't, you can't feel like you're too good to start at the bottom to get it. That's "Having a Career 101", for any profession. No one's entitled to respect - you've got to earn it; and there's a serious difference between being a reliable (eg, experienced) coder, and merely passing a multiple choice test on the subject. It takes practice to build skills, and they want to know you've really gotten it, ahead of time.
> 
> I can see how you would have interpreted a gripe as being overly harsh, but I've also read dozens upon _dozens_ of posts from people who are "too good for filing", who have no more experience coding, than the filing clerk at the place they want to work - they're frustrated, and absolutely baffled by their inability to get a coding position - it _does_ get old to read, and is discouraging to those who don't mind rolling up their sleeves in a 'mundane' position, to get their foot in the door.
> 
> If you can't get a job without experience, then get some experience any way that you can. Intern, or use the AAPC's resources (like Code-A-Rounds), to get the "A" off of your credential, and keep trying. If you don't give up, you'll eventually succeed, and it'll all have been worthwhile.
> If you think that someone should just hand you a job, simply because you completed your course work, then I'd say yes, you have totally wasted your money and time, because the world simply doesn't work that way. So, I guess it's subjective.
> 
> P.S. - Office experience is good enough for medical office experience in most cases. If you can use a computer and Microsoft Office programs, you're usually qualified. Don't sell yourself short - you're on the right track. Good luck!


I have to say I agree with Brandi T. I do think many schools (some of them online, etc.) over-simplify the ease of becoming a successful (i.e. employed) coding professional.  Education and work experience in other fields is helpful, but are not a substitute for timing, dedication, flexibility and old-fashioned networking.  Preparation meeting opportunity = what some call "luck"!  

I have over 15 years coding and medical management experience, but the bad economy cost my husband his job and we had to sell our home and move to somewhere else in the country cheaper to live to start over. I had a well-paying job as an AR Manager/CPC, but daily did not use my coding all that much. Unfortunately, my salary wasn't enough to carry us and he couldn't find work so we packed up, sold off most of our stuff and hit the road. 6 months later I live in another state, have a job with benefits making about 1/2 what I used to, but he has a fulltime too (which is good for him, us & our marriage) and now I code 8 hours a day for a family practice.  I have a lot less stress, I make enough to live on because it's a LOT cheaper where I live and overall I consider myself "lucky". BUT - I searched for 6 months for work, took many temp/part-time jobs and applied for jobs as a receptionist, scheduler and file clerk - just to get my foot in the door somewhere.  I ended up getting a job that pays better than most around here and requires me to be a CPC - but what got me the job was partly networking (I knew someone who knew someone to get me the interview) and part experience - they wanted a strong player, comfortable working directly with providers who wouldn't be too intimidated to interact directly with them to improve their coding and compliance.  That takes someone who knows how to research, get their facts lined up and have the confidence & knowledge to back them up when the doctors/NPPs want to question "the Code".  That isn't going to be something someone new to the medical field would have been comfortable doing! I'm also helping to teach other non-certified coders and encourage them to get their certification.

All I can say to new coders is keep networking, take a job ANYwhere you can - medical office or not - you are much more hireable if you are already working - and keep going to chapter meetings & keep up your skills, the stars will align for you someday when preparation meets opportunity for YOU!


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## chshaffer41@gmail.com

*CShaffer, CPC-A*

I just read through the previous posts and I have logged on and off of this forum several times debating on wether I wanted to post a reply or not.  I just cannot read these posts without adding my opinion.  I would like to say that I understand the frustation,  as a CPC-A myself,  how difficult it is to land a job in coding.  I was recently working in a single provider's office as a Medical Assistant in hopes of moving into the Billing/Coding position for this practice.  It,  unfortunately,  did not work out that way for me.  I did not have ANY experience as a MA,  but I did have many years of accounting/billing experience,  and I worked extremely hard at the MA job.  All those MA's out there know how hard the work is ,  and the pay isn't all that great.  That being said,  I feel that even though there has been some complaining,  or "whining" was the word used, from the CPC-A's,  I personally thought that use of the word whining to describe the frustrations of us CPC-A's was a bit offending.  We are looking to our peers for guidance and re-assuring us there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  We are new to this and unsure about the expectations,  just because we are frustrated doesn't label us "whiners".  I thought this forum was for ALL of us to voice our concerns, encouragement, advice,  as well as our frustrations...I have worked many jobs,  and have given my ALL at every one of them no matter how much hard work was required.  I have also worked very hard in my per suit in the coding feild.  Although I do not expect a job to be handed to me,  and I am very dedicated at working as hard as I need to,  to get that job.  It is quite frustrating to work that hard at something and not be able to get a foot in the door to get the much needed experience,  and then post a reply voicing a very real concern only to have it labeled "whining",  is quite disturbing to me.  Just saying..,

      As to those of you who did post encouraging words and advice....Hats off to you and thank you.  This advice and encouragement is vital to those of us who are looking to find our way in this feild.  I refuse to give up in my search for the right job for me.


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## btadlock1

machshaffer@aol.com said:


> I just read through the previous posts and I have logged on and off of this forum several times debating on wether I wanted to post a reply or not.  I just cannot read these posts without adding my opinion.  I would like to say that I understand the frustation,  as a CPC-A myself,  how difficult it is to land a job in coding.  I was recently working in a single provider's office as a Medical Assistant in hopes of moving into the Billing/Coding position for this practice.  It,  unfortunately,  did not work out that way for me.  I did not have ANY experience as a MA,  but I did have many years of accounting/billing experience,  and I worked extremely hard at the MA job.  All those MA's out there know how hard the work is ,  and the pay isn't all that great.  That being said,  I feel that even though there has been some complaining,  or "whining" was the word used, from the CPC-A's,  I personally thought that use of the word whining to describe the frustrations of us CPC-A's was a bit offending.  We are looking to our peers for guidance and re-assuring us there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  We are new to this and unsure about the expectations,  just because we are frustrated doesn't label us "whiners".  I thought this forum was for ALL of us to voice our concerns, encouragement, advice,  as well as our frustrations...I have worked many jobs,  and have given my ALL at every one of them no matter how much hard work was required.  I have also worked very hard in my per suit in the coding feild.  Although I do not expect a job to be handed to me,  and I am very dedicated at working as hard as I need to,  to get that job.  It is quite frustrating to work that hard at something and not be able to get a foot in the door to get the much needed experience,  and then post a reply voicing a very real concern only to have it labeled "whining",  is quite disturbing to me.  Just saying..,
> 
> As to those of you who did post encouraging words and advice....Hats off to you and thank you.  This advice and encouragement is vital to those of us who are looking to find our way in this feild.  I refuse to give up in my search for the right job for me.



This thread's gotten pretty long, so I may have missed it somewhere, but I don't know of *any* experienced coders on here who have categorized the complaints as "whining" - that's a very derogatory way of describing what are, in many cases, valid complaints. From what I've been able to tell, the only ones who *have* mentioned it are the new coders on here, themselves (which makes me wonder whether things might be getting convoluted in interpretation). We understand the frustration you're experiencing; we're just trying to convey that you've _got_ to have realistic expectations about the career prospects to avoid disappointment, and that many of the folks out there complaining are missing that point...

But, I digress...Keep your head up! Some employers don't know a good thing when they see it, so if you've gotten your foot in the door, and paid your dues, and you're not getting the opportunities that you're hoping for, build your resume, and take that foot somewhere else!

It's a lot easier to get a job in the medical field if you already _*have*_ a job in the medical field, so if you express to potential employers that you're wanting to move out of being an MA and into being a coder, even a lateral move (as an MA somewhere else, temporarily), could be your ticket to getting where you want to be. Definitely *DO NOT *give up! You're closer than you think!


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## BJanePla

The point is when you are fresh out of school, you are "fresh" in your mind and know your stuff. Billing in a doctors office is not that hard as the doctors circle the codes for the biller to send out bills & file insurance.  Many of us are VERY experienced in other areas,
and I would say, me personnaly have TRANSFERRED skills. I started out at age 18 with a job as a full time Bookkeeper (out of school in 65). I was up to years ago an
Executive Assistant & Administrative Assistant; before I got laid off and worked as a ceritfied HUC/Unit Secretary where I also had to know a lot about Medical Records and some coding...then I went back to school to study MBC at Erwin Voct Tech for 11 months, and now a CPC-A and cannot find any kind of work. Just because you all are coders now, doesn't mean you can take shorthand, do bookkeeping, PowerPoint, write software programs, be a major fundraiser, many of us are very skilled in other areas and have become retrained for MBC. Hospitals use CSS and start one out in the ER or OP, and you have to work at that for a few years. I know my doctors Medical Biller very well, and she is not certified, and just bills what the doctor circles! Gee how hard can that be! I also was an Account Clerk AR in the past. I would think doctors would want to hire "fresh" brains, not someone who does not keep up with changes. I also have an AA & AS degree in Business and 30 hours in HIM. As I said many of us do have experience, but not in coding! Being a Unit Secretary for several years I had to know all aspects of medical records and doctors still don't count that as experience. You figure!


----------



## BJanePla

*I am amazed at the lack of support from*

I am amazed at the lack of support from other Coders in this forum. Please don't tell us we are whinning, we need support and "clues" or help to find any work in a doctors office, medical facility or hospital.


----------



## BJanePla

espressoguy said:


> I obtained a coding position with no healthcare experience about 9 months after I got certified. I'll be the first to admit that I was a little lucky. After 30+ years in sales, I decided to make a career change. My wife is a manager at one of the local hospitals and she suggested I look into coding. She knew the coding manager and the coding director and was reasonably certain she could get me in the door. Towards the end of my studies at the nearby community college she got me an externship at her hospital. When an entry level coding position opened up several months later I got an interview, but was not offered the job.
> 
> Fast forward to this past September, and I got a call from another nearby hospital and, long story short, I was offered the position and started on October 3. I was one of three new coders hired within a six week period, although I was the only one without experience. Once I got started I quickly realized that real world coding bears little resemblance to classroom coding. As someone mentioned upthread, it's not just about looking up codes. My supervisor and 2 of the experienced coders have spent a lot of time bringing me up to speed. There are not a lot of organizations that are able to invest that much time in a newbie. It's easier to hire experience.
> 
> As far as being sold a bill of goods by my school, it didn't happen. I considered programs at 4 local community colleges and I talked with advisors at 2 of them. One of them actually tried to discourage me.
> 
> I know how disheartening it can be looking for work. However, I am living proof that a person without previous healthcare experience can get a coding job. There is another poster on this forum who also got a coding job without experience. I believe the in-coming president of one of the local Seattle area chapters is a CPC-A who got his first job without experience. The other day my wife mentioned that her hospital has 2 openings for Coder I's. Under minimum requirements it says, "New grads welcome."
> 
> All I can say is be encouraged by my story. Don't give up.


To express guy: Maybe where you live there are opportunities, but many of us just can't pack up and move; Florida has tooooo many coders/billers ...and many of us can't get a job in Tampa Bay.


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## Butler

Brandi, 
I am the person who had started this particular thread and the word "whining" was taken as a direct quote from another thread that I had read on the AAPC web site. I have been able to find some of the posts I had read.  I had started this thread because I was shocked at the direct quote and was looking for encouragement. I just wanted everyone to know. Below are three of the posts: 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________
 #168 *  *  *
 07-13-2010, 04:33 AM	
Pam Brooks 
Expert*Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
Posts: 404

Perhaps the whining will stop, and the board can be used for the purpose it was originally intended...to offer guidance and support to professional coders. 

Thanks for the kudos. I just felt that it had to be said. I'm off my soapbox now.
__________________
Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
Physician Services Coding Supervisor
Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
Dover, NH 03820	

--and--

Pam Brooks 
Expert*Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
Posts: 404	

As someone who has been in this business for 20+ years, and who is in the position to hire entry level coders, I really want to respond to this thread.

First, I agree that it's frustrating to have spent time, money and effort, only to learn that the healthcare field is not waiting for you with open arms. But I want to ask each and every one of you who are not currently able to find work to look at this situation from my perspective, and then ask yourselves who is really responsible for all of this? Let me be as blunt and as polite as I possibly can. If I offend you, I apologize in advance.

One post I read lamented that they had spent "3 whole months" learning this work, and felt ripped off because nobody would hire them. If anyone thinks that they can learn coding in three months, and expect any physician, facility, or billing agency to hire you with that "expansive" length of education, then you were sadly misinformed, or did not take the time to do the research, which is, by the way, a necessary skill required of all coders. The biggest trend I am seeing in this thread is that many of you didn't do your research. Before plunking down your money for your coding classes, did you call any hosptials, physicians or billing companies to see what they required for education and experience? Or did you rely on the advertisements and promises of the coding schools alone to convince you that this is a wide-open field? Had you called me (a coding supervisor for a hospital-owned multispecialty practice with 90+ physicians) I would have told you that I do not hire new graduates for staff coding positions, and that the EMR has eliminated the need for entry level coding assistants. 

I did recently have one entry-level position open up. I threw out several resumes for spelling and grammar errors. (hello....attention to detail??!!) Some applicants had schedule requirements that I couldn't meet, like they couldn't work on Tuesdays because they had to babysit the grandkid. One showed up in clothing that voilated our dress code. In the end, only four certified coders were in the running. I was shocked that only one could tell me the difference between CPT and ICD-9. You can see how this might be discouraging to an employer, because it tells me that not everyone is getting the best training, and not everyone wants to do all that they can to secure employment. 

According to the Coding Edge between April and July of this year, there were nearly 2100 new CPC-A's credentialled. I do not blame the AAPC, as many of you have. The AAPC is a for-profit company, dedicated to promoting and educating excellent coders, and they do a fantastic job. But why shouldn't they take take your money if you offer it up? They are not responsible for the job market, your resume content, your interveiw behavior, your lack of education or experience, your geographic region, or that you took a chance on this career and can't get a job. That is your responsibility. Threatening litigation on this website is career suicide; there isn't a coding manager on earth that would hire you now. 

Here's what I look for: Is your resume spotless? Are you? Look in the mirror, appearance does count, sorry. You'll be speaking with physicians and will wear a badge that identifies you as an employee, and we want you to be neatly and professionally presented. Skip the cigarette before the interview, I can smell it. Explain to me what it is about you that makes you someone that I want to hire. I can teach you to code, but I can't teach you to be motivated, organized, personable or smart. Figure out what kind of coder I need (surgery, E&M, rad, lab) and then brush up on those areas, because I'm going to test you. Ask me questions, don't just sit there! 

I once had an interview for a job that I really wanted, and did not get the job. I couldn't understand why...I thought the interview went extremely well. Later, I asked for feedback as to why I wasn't selected, and it was the most valuable career advice I have ever received. I made mistakes (unknowingly at the time) that were pointed out to me, and although it was difficult to hear, I never made those mistakes again. So if you don't get the job, find out why, because even though you don't want to hear this....it might be about you, and it might be something you can do differently next time with more favorable results. 

I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope that I was able to give a different perspective. The best advice I can give is to stay focused, accept any position within the healthcare field, avoid the bad attitudes, and keep trying.
__________________
Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
Physician Services Coding Supervisor
Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
Dover, NH 03820

Last edited by Pam Brooks; 07-09-2010 at 10:45 AM.	

--and--

 09-01-2010, 04:41 AM
Pam Brooks 
Expert

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
Posts: 404

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavyton 
That really stinks! I am currently a biller at an office in St. Pete Florida but I have hopes of getting into a practice that will pay me for my skills. I mean I am the only one in a small practice that does the billing here ( & then some ) & now they want me to take on coding as well. I hardly have time to do what I have now, posting, follow up, statements, not to mention the extras I must to in order to maintain flow & then to take on coding as well. I am going to sink in all this work. I am in school now for coding, I can only hope between my school seeking out jobs for me & my 2 years of billing that there is hope I can land a job that will pay more than I am making now. I mean I have a full plate here & hardly get enough money to make it. I really had hopes coding would open more doors but I can see that most places want 3 years or more coding. It is so depressing.

Maybe instead of complaining about the increased responsiblity to "take on the coding", you can consider this an opportunity to learn more about this field. There are thousands of certified coders who are unable to get experience (never mind even a job) who would be thrilled to have the opportunity that you have been presented. Frankly, your attitude is unfortunate. Take a peek at the resume posting board...I bet someone there would love to take over for you. 

It's not about the money, and if it is, you should just move on right now. Nobody is getting rich in healthcare any longer. It's about job satisfaction and the opportunity to help and learn. With budget cuts, payer constraints and a poor economy, we're all overworked, but personally, I'm damned happy to have a job. 

Pull up your big girl (or boy) pants, everyone. Life isn't going to hand you a winning lottery ticket. You have to work to get what you want, and you're never going to start at the top. I've posted (and presented) on this topic before, and continue to be amazed at the whining and ranting on this professional board.
__________________
Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
Physician Services Coding Supervisor
Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
Dover, NH 03820
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On a positive note...I appreciate all of the additional information and words of encouragement we have received. I feel this has been very beneficial and has provided me with valuable information. This has helped to shed some light on why my applications have been denied.  This is the information I wish I would have heard in the classroom. 

I think that, by knowing what to expect in the job search, will provide us with the tools needed to leap over hurdles : )

Dianne


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## btadlock1

Well, I hate to tell you this, but when it's put into context, what she said makes quite a bit of sense.

Two parts in particular stuck out to me:
"First, I agree that it's frustrating to have spent time, money and effort, only to learn that the healthcare field is not waiting for you with open arms. But I want to ask each and every one of you who are not currently able to find work to look at this situation from my perspective, and then ask yourselves who is really responsible for all of this? Let me be as blunt and as polite as I possibly can. If I offend you, I apologize in advance.

One post I read lamented that they had spent "3 whole months" learning this work, and felt ripped off because nobody would hire them. If anyone thinks that they can learn coding in three months, and expect any physician, facility, or billing agency to hire you with that "expansive" length of education, then you were sadly misinformed, or did not take the time to do the research, which is, by the way, a necessary skill required of all coders. The biggest trend I am seeing in this thread is that many of you didn't do your research. Before plunking down your money for your coding classes, did you call any hosptials, physicians or billing companies to see what they required for education and experience? Or did you rely on the advertisements and promises of the coding schools alone to convince you that this is a wide-open field? Had you called me (a coding supervisor for a hospital-owned multispecialty practice with 90+ physicians) I would have told you that I do not hire new graduates for staff coding positions, and that the EMR has eliminated the need for entry level coding assistants"

1. She was clearly venting, due to a feeling of annoyance from reading post after post, of new coders with bad attitudes. (I too have shared in this frustration before, but have opted not to say anything on the majority of the posts, because the people who are constantly complaining in the manner described, typically have a "victim"-mentality, and would rather blame others for their situation, than "stoop to the level" of working some 'menial' front office job. It's annoying. There, I said it.)

2. She's not talking about _every _new coder, or even every new coder who can't find a job - *only the ones who feel like they know everything, just because they passed the exam *- and _especially_ those *who have never actually coded *before. I stress this point, because no matter how "fresh" you are from training, or how much time and money you spent learning about coding in school, the fact of the matter is, if you've never practiced REAL coding (i.e., no multiple choice answers to pick from, or superbill to look at, or providers' code choices to reference - straight up, picking the codes yourself off of a medical record) - then you are not a seasoned coder, like those that employers are looking for. It takes practice to build skill - not class time, or study guides, or practice tests - real world practice.

*I'm sorry, I know I'm being harsh, and will probably make someone mad; but it's the truth, like it or not. *You *can* learn it, and you can learn it on the job, but someone has to take the time and effort to teach you. You are an *apprentice* - which is another word for *"student". *You're still learning, as we all are - only you're still *REALLY* green. 

I hope this doesn't discourage you - just the opposite; I hope it *encourages* you to go out into the world and *try to get some practice*. I don't do a lot of coding in my line of work - you know where I learned it? From these very forums. I went through where people were asking for help, and tried my best to give them the answer, by looking for it myself. (If you were to search *WAY* back through my posts, you'd see how often I was wrong about things...*ALL of the time*). Eventually, I got the hang of it, but only after more seasoned coders took the time to correct me, and help me understand where I'd gone wrong. If you can't get any on the job experience, do that. Maybe at least you can demonstrate your proficiency to an employer in a few months, and talk them into overlooking that "2 years of experience" requirement. 

I'll exit my soapbox now...


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## cordelia

Brandi,

I have wanted to comment on this thread multiple times, but just simply couldn't sum it up as eloquently as you. Brava. 

What frustrates me is that many (not all) new grad coders act like us "seasoned" coders have never had to start at the bottom, (I worked front desk and charge entry before I got a coding job)  that we did not also spend our hard earned money and months of our lives study and learning to be a part of this field.  That we also faced rejection and frustration.

And honestly, it hurts when people say that experienced coders are selfish, that we don't want to help, that we don't understand, we don't get it and that we are hogging all the jobs for ourselves. We are here to help, to guide and advise, but if you do not want to listen to the advice that is given, that is your choice.

My personal opinion- I did it, why can't you?

Now, I will step off my soapbox


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## mksilvestre

I have just finished reading all the posts on this thread.  At first, I was feeling a little hot headed and beyond offended and wanted to vent; then I decided to read everything before making this post.  I have calmed down and see where the venting and name calling were misunderstood.  To all the professional coders, please accept my misguided apology for almost blowing up.  To the newly certified and unemployed coders, please read on. 

I am a CPC-A (just passed the exam in November) and I did my research on the types of work that are available for a medical facility.  The school I am attending right now has a wonderful instructor that has wholeheartedly expressed "take any job you can get in a medical facility".  I have listened to her and I am currently interning as  at the local hospital in reception.  I have talked to my supervisor and she has arranged for me to visit the coding departments (the hospital and clinic are one facility but currently code separtly) and I have found that many of the people are not certified, only 3 are certified (in the hospital part).  I was embarrassed to even say I was certified; some of the women have been working there for 10+ years and I got the feeling that my bragging would make them uncomfortable. 

I have learned that the only people you need to impress with your certification is yourself (for all the effort and hard work you have applied), your family (to prove that you can do it and encourage the younger ones that an education is important), and your future employer (because they pay you).  

What I wanted to say to my newly credentialed peers, take the reception position, medical records position, or switchboard operator position.  I have had the opportunity to shadow fellow coders and enjoyed it.  I was allowed to read the progress reports and physically code the case as far as I could (documentation needed clarification).  I have learned that the few cases I have had the opportunity to work on actually built a network of possible leads.  The one lady I shadowed actually asked if I could shadow her again before my internship ends and stated that I was really good with the cases I worked on.  I am hoping that her compliment and my dedication for wanting to learn more than reception will land me a position somewhere in the hospital.  

As for the experience I am gaining, I can tell all the people who are wanting a coding position, but don't know the insurance part, learn the insurance guidelines.  Working in the reception area I have learned that the insurance, especially Medicare/Medicaid, are very particular on their payments.  The women I work with carry around 3" binders packed full with the rules/guidelines of each insurance company.  The rules are always changing and that is thier "bible" when it comes to the various insurance companies.  Only being on the job for 2 months, I have not even begun to understand all of it, but I can say that insurance guidelines are very important for more than just reception, the coders have to know the insurance guidelines to code the case properly.  

Good luck with your ventures.  I hope your journeys lead you to your dream job.


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## btadlock1

mksilvestre said:


> I have just finished reading all the posts on this thread.  At first, I was feeling a little hot headed and beyond offended and wanted to vent; then I decided to read everything before making this post.  I have calmed down and see where the venting and name calling were misunderstood.  To all the professional coders, please accept my misguided apology for almost blowing up.  To the newly certified and unemployed coders, please read on.
> 
> I am a CPC-A (just passed the exam in November) and I did my research on the types of work that are available for a medical facility.  The school I am attending right now has a wonderful instructor that has wholeheartedly expressed "take any job you can get in a medical facility".  I have listened to her and I am currently interning as  at the local hospital in reception.  I have talked to my supervisor and she has arranged for me to visit the coding departments (the hospital and clinic are one facility but currently code separtly) and I have found that many of the people are not certified, only 3 are certified (in the hospital part).  I was embarrassed to even say I was certified; some of the women have been working there for 10+ years and I got the feeling that my bragging would make them uncomfortable.
> 
> I have learned that the only people you need to impress with your certification is yourself (for all the effort and hard work you have applied), your family (to prove that you can do it and encourage the younger ones that an education is important), and your future employer (because they pay you).
> 
> What I wanted to say to my newly credentialed peers, take the reception position, medical records position, or switchboard operator position.  I have had the opportunity to shadow fellow coders and enjoyed it.  I was allowed to read the progress reports and physically code the case as far as I could (documentation needed clarification).  I have learned that the few cases I have had the opportunity to work on actually built a network of possible leads.  The one lady I shadowed actually asked if I could shadow her again before my internship ends and stated that I was really good with the cases I worked on.  I am hoping that her compliment and my dedication for wanting to learn more than reception will land me a position somewhere in the hospital.
> 
> As for the experience I am gaining, I can tell all the people who are wanting a coding position, but don't know the insurance part, learn the insurance guidelines.  Working in the reception area I have learned that the insurance, especially Medicare/Medicaid, are very particular on their payments.  The women I work with carry around 3" binders packed full with the rules/guidelines of each insurance company.  The rules are always changing and that is thier "bible" when it comes to the various insurance companies.  Only being on the job for 2 months, I have not even begun to understand all of it, but I can say that insurance guidelines are very important for more than just reception, the coders have to know the insurance guidelines to code the case properly.
> 
> Good luck with your ventures.  I hope your journeys lead you to your dream job.



*Excellent *advice - I only have one comment to make; as someone who started out in the insurance side - following up on outstanding/denied claims...
Don't worry about lugging around binders of information that you need to memorize...it's really not that scary! 

Most payers list everything you need to see online - you should just try to learn about the who the different payers are in your area, and figure out how to navigate their provider website. (The AAPC even has links to most of their pages! It's really awesome, if you've never seen it.)

The policies and procedures change as often (if not more so), as the codes, themselves do. If you can show that you're familiar with them, and more importantly, where to _find _them - you'll be far better equipped to land a job. (_Not_ *guaranteed* - just  _more likely_)


----------



## theresa.dix@tennova.com

chelsey71 said:


> I will just say "amen" to the other seasoned coders who have responded to this thread.  It's not that we are slamming or putting down the new coders or CPC-A's, but there IS a tone of entitlement that appears in many of the threads that complain about the AAPC, schools, employers, and experienced coders.
> My experience started out as receptionist and appointment scheduler 21 years ago.  By being willing and able to expand my job title and skills, I moved in to medical records, check in and check out, billing and collections assistant, and kept adding to my resume.  None of the jobs were offered to me without my having to prove myself and continue learning.
> After a few years of training (where I was given the CPT or ICD-9 book and told to find the codes when they weren't nearly as easy to find as today), taking any and every seminar available to me on state, local, and national billing trends/issues, and being willing to ask questions from those who were 'bigger, meaner, and knew more than I did', I was in the position to be brought in by practices to audit, clean up billing/coding, and train staff (including doctors).
> There is so much more involved in the coding spectrum as has been brought up by previous posters!!!  Being able to do data entry from a superbill is not a difficult job.  Knowing what can/can't be billed according to statutes, training physicians/providers on new codes or problematic coding issues, and translating the codes in to reality is something that takes skills.  Yes, you as a CPC-A have skills from a classroom and training, but that does not directly translate in to the office setting generally.
> Remember, life is hard and the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result.  Getting your foot in the door is a good thing and, yes, not every job you have the chance to interview for or possibly be hired is what you want, but treat it as an opportunity to grow!
> Having managed offices and handled hiring in the past, including mentoring students from schools in their externships, book learning isn't everything.  There is so much more involved than the general canvassing of a class can teach you.
> We experienced coders aren't slamming you in the least, but we are looking at it from a different perspective of having slogged through the trenches, including doing stuff that you may consider beneath your skills set, but we realize that all the jobs out there just help you learn, grow, and add to your marketability/skills.
> *** Plus, I will agree with the previous poster and reiterate, PLEASE spell and grammar check your resume/cover letters!  It's amazing how many I have thrown away due to hideous errors!  If you can't take the time to make sure your initial written impression to the Hiring Manager is clean, how could they trust you to do the job correctly????  Also, appearance does make a difference.  Dress a level or two higher than the standard day to day dress code when you go in to interview.  Please, don't show up in scrubs for a coding interview.  Having been in Las Vegas previously, I would also STRONGLY recommend that you NOT show up in full on hoochie attire or club wear.  If the outfit is something you would wear out clubbing on the weekends, it's not medical office attire!




Wow this is something. I just read what Pam had to say. I agree with the advice she has given the new coders! She is telling the way it is. I see it every day.


----------



## Butler

*Trying to get into the medical field*



mksilvestre said:


> I have just finished reading all the posts on this thread.  At first, I was feeling a little hot headed and beyond offended and wanted to vent; then I decided to read everything before making this post.  I have calmed down and see where the venting and name calling were misunderstood.  To all the professional coders, please accept my misguided apology for almost blowing up.  To the newly certified and unemployed coders, please read on.
> 
> I am a CPC-A (just passed the exam in November) and I did my research on the types of work that are available for a medical facility.  The school I am attending right now has a wonderful instructor that has wholeheartedly expressed "take any job you can get in a medical facility".  I have listened to her and I am currently interning as  at the local hospital in reception.  I have talked to my supervisor and she has arranged for me to visit the coding departments (the hospital and clinic are one facility but currently code separtly) and I have found that many of the people are not certified, only 3 are certified (in the hospital part).  I was embarrassed to even say I was certified; some of the women have been working there for 10+ years and I got the feeling that my bragging would make them uncomfortable.
> 
> I have learned that the only people you need to impress with your certification is yourself (for all the effort and hard work you have applied), your family (to prove that you can do it and encourage the younger ones that an education is important), and your future employer (because they pay you).
> 
> What I wanted to say to my newly credentialed peers, take the reception position, medical records position, or switchboard operator position.  I have had the opportunity to shadow fellow coders and enjoyed it.  I was allowed to read the progress reports and physically code the case as far as I could (documentation needed clarification).  I have learned that the few cases I have had the opportunity to work on actually built a network of possible leads.  The one lady I shadowed actually asked if I could shadow her again before my internship ends and stated that I was really good with the cases I worked on.  I am hoping that her compliment and my dedication for wanting to learn more than reception will land me a position somewhere in the hospital.
> 
> As for the experience I am gaining, I can tell all the people who are wanting a coding position, but don't know the insurance part, learn the insurance guidelines.  Working in the reception area I have learned that the insurance, especially Medicare/Medicaid, are very particular on their payments.  The women I work with carry around 3" binders packed full with the rules/guidelines of each insurance company.  The rules are always changing and that is thier "bible" when it comes to the various insurance companies.  Only being on the job for 2 months, I have not even begun to understand all of it, but I can say that insurance guidelines are very important for more than just reception, the coders have to know the insurance guidelines to code the case properly.
> 
> Good luck with your ventures.  I hope your journeys lead you to your dream job.


__________________________________________________________________________



			
				Yesterday 09:47 PM		
chelsey71	I will just say "amen" to the other seasoned coders who have responded to this thread. It's not that we are slamming or putting down the new coders or CPC-A's said:
			
		

> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> I thank everyone for the words of encouragement, but I am also unable to find any job in the medical field for the past 2 years...let alone a coding job. I have my CPC-A and my CHAA (also taken a Professional Medical Coding course, Medical Insurance Reimbursement, Patient Access Fundamentals, Medical Terminology, and Anatomy and Physiology I) . I do not have an extern program in my area. But I do need to work full time to survive and I am unable to move.
> I have no experience in the medical field. I do have office experience.  I am willing to take any entry position to learn and get experience. I have applied for receptionist, customer service, billing, medical records, patient access representative, patient access specialist, unit secretary, clerk, etc.
> 
> P.S.  I do dress professionally, do not own hoochie attire, but I do appreciate the professional opinion.


----------



## Pam Brooks

Well, Ms. Butler, although I respect your right to post on this public board, I'm dismayed that you took my posts out of context and went so far as to suggest that I have been less than professional on this site. I'm a big girl, and clearly understand that not everyone is going to love my no-nonsense approach, but if you want a sugar-coated answer, you'd better head for the bakery. I did go back to the threads that you referenced, read through them all in regards to their full content, and I wouldn't retract a single one. I stand by my comments, my opinions and the manner in which they were intended. If you choose to take it personally, that's your prerogative. 
I think that if you dig deeper into the origin of my posts, you will find that my responses are warranted.   Although I've noted recent improvements, there was a period of time over a year ago where every third post was a litany of complaints, finger-pointing, and yes, whining about the inability to get coding jobs. As a hiring manager, I know what gets people hired, and have tried to share that on this board, with encouragement, suggestions and the occasional plea to stop the pointless pity parties. I'm not the only hiring manager who was fed up with the entitlement felt by some of the new coders when jobs didn't just come raining down like manna from the sky. The posts were so negative and frustrating to read; they detracted from the purpose of the board, and because I am a writer as well as a coder, I felt obligated to respond. This is a tough field….if you're offended by any of this-- heaven help you if you have to ever go toe-to-toe with a thoracic surgeon. Those docs will eat you alive! 
Be shocked if you must, but frankly your attempt to discredit the advice and comments of the many, many successful experienced senior coders on this board who have taken time out of their day to offer a reality check, was probably not a very well-thought out career move. 
In case you're wondering…I will continue to contribute to this board.


----------



## mmorningstarcpc

Great response Pam, good for you!!!  

To Ms Butler and all the other negative commenters to this post, I ask, do you really think that the experienced/senior coders began their career in the upper level position they are in now? Do you really think that we made great money right out of school?  Do you really think that we did not "earn" our way the hard way, ie by starting at the bottom, just like we suggest to newbies?  Reality check, WE DID NOT!!  When most of the more senior coders started in this field, coding really was not yet the profession it is today.  I would bet lots of money that most of us (like me) started out (maybe with some college) as a medical secretary, unit clerk or another related position, and we grew from there.  We grew because we showed, and continue to show, initiative, love for what we do, hard work and a willingness to learn and research, and most of all we had a respect for those that came first and were willing to teach/work with us!!!

I don't want to start another barage of negative comments, but newbies can learn alot from some of the experienced coders on this forum.  Instead of acting like you are entitled (if the shoe fits), listen to what these people tell you and/or suggest.  We have been there, done that, and earned our stripes.  We do not think we are better than you, we are not condesending, but we have been in this field for a long time, are hiring managers, and know what hiring managers are looking for.  

Everytime I receive a resume, I look first at the typical things, spelling, grammer, your email avitar, education and experience, etc.  Then I check the forums.  If the applicant is on the forums, I most times learn a lot about that person by reading their comments/posts.  If someone is griping and being negative on the forums, how do you think they will act in the position????  You do not want to bite the hand that feeds you.

If you did not do your research on hiring practices, coder staff needs, etc, and can not find a job, DO NOT blame senior coders on this site, or any other site.  Most of us will give a helping hand to a newbie if we can.  With that said, a lot of us are not in that position, what with HR and practice/facility guidelines. 

Again, great post Pam.  Newbies, please read and take to heart the suggestions senior coders offer, it may just get you a job!!

Respectfully,

I would like to add that many experienced/senior coders have offered advice many, many times, only to basically be trashed by many newbies not liking our suggestions on finding employment and other advice.  This becomes very disheartening and made me wonder why we bother??  Many of us would like to help newbies, but who wants to continuously be trashed for offering help?  You may not like our suggestions, but again, we are in the real world and know what works and what doesn't.  No, I'm not saying we know it all, but think about the advice given before jumping all over the poster.  Maybe then more senior coders were step up to the plate and offer assistance more often.


----------



## RebeccaWoodward*

I, too, must come to Pam's defense.  I have always found Pam to be very professional and extremely helpful.  To single out one particular person is, in my opinion, "slamming" someone. While I understand your situation, there are hundreds of other professions that experience the same issues. Coding is not an isolated profession.  There are thousands of people out of a job as we speak!  Not to suggest you're not or haven't but in this day of time, one needs to become savvy, tenacious and literally reinvent themselves.  

Something else to keep in mind....

In light of RAC and the MIC's, compliance is at an all time high.  While I understand that you worked very hard for your certification, experience IS *highly* valued since physicians are being scrutinized more so than ever. Billions of dollars are being recouped due to inproper coding. "Seasoned" coders should have caught some of these errors.  Do you know how many post's we see regarding "new versus establish" patient's???  This is coding 101; yet, RAC is recouping millions of dollars just on this very issue!

I do wish you the very best on your quest but please be mindful and considerate of your posts.  We're only here to help...


----------



## coachlang3

BJanePla said:


> The point is when you are fresh out of school, you are "fresh" in your mind and know your stuff. Billing in a doctors office is not that hard as the doctors circle the codes for the biller to send out bills & file insurance.  Many of us are VERY experienced in other areas,
> and I would say, me personnaly have TRANSFERRED skills. I started out at age 18 with a job as a full time Bookkeeper (out of school in 65). I was up to years ago an
> Executive Assistant & Administrative Assistant; before I got laid off and worked as a ceritfied HUC/Unit Secretary where I also had to know a lot about Medical Records and some coding...then I went back to school to study MBC at Erwin Voct Tech for 11 months, and now a CPC-A and cannot find any kind of work. Just because you all are coders now, doesn't mean you can take shorthand, do bookkeeping, PowerPoint, write software programs, be a major fundraiser, many of us are very skilled in other areas and have become retrained for MBC. Hospitals use CSS and start one out in the ER or OP, and you have to work at that for a few years. I know my doctors Medical Biller very well, and she is not certified, and just bills what the doctor circles! Gee how hard can that be! I also was an Account Clerk AR in the past. I would think doctors would want to hire "fresh" brains, not someone who does not keep up with changes. I also have an AA & AS degree in Business and 30 hours in HIM. As I said many of us do have experience, but not in coding! Being a Unit Secretary for several years I had to know all aspects of medical records and doctors still don't count that as experience. You figure!




See, this here is a problem.  "Fresh brains"?  You think coding is just taking the code the doctor circled and entering it into the sytem?  You also think we don't keep up with "changes"?

You state you know your doctors biller and she just enters what he circles.  Well that could be the case of many of these offices and those like that aren't going to be hiring to replace someone who's doing it just because you are certified.  You are also eventually going to see problems with that office when they get audited.

I personally do coding and billing for a 13 doctor practice with 5 endoscopy suites.  I do the billing for 4 of the endo suites and the doctors IP/OP charges and I'll tell you right now I hardly ever use the charge tickets the doctors give me because half the time they are wrong and don't match the note.  Then I have to translate according to the payors rules.

And as for changes and keeping up?  You have to to stay certified.  You also need to stay up to date with payor rules and contracts or you will code wrong and then get fired (for continually costing the practice revenue).

So just because someone has a "fresh mind" doesn't mean they have the experience necessary to actually code and code right.  

Sure any one can sit at a computer and enter in numbers, but are you putting in the correct numbers?  Heck I can go into the exam room and listen to a pt's heart beat and lungs and take their blood pressure and ask them to cough.  Doesn't mean I'm an MA, nurse or doctor.

Context people.  We're here to help as much as we can, but it's tough all over and it's not getting easier yet.  Yes, there are some schools out there that take advantage of the peoples fears (happened to me 5 years ago, but I did have medical office and managment experience) and you rush into something.  

I'm almost embarrassed to say my best friend, a doctor, gave me a small physicians coding guide written by one of the doctors associated with the AAPC when I left the medical office I used to be a coordinator for and I never knew there were certified coders.  I got here to Charlotte and figured with my 5 years experience at a major northeast hospital outpatient center it would be no problem to find a position.  I was wrong and got a call from a for-profit "college" saying you had to be certified at something to get a job here.  I got scared, didn't do my homework or investigate and started with the "school".  $8000.00.  And then I found out I could've taken a course at the local community college for 1/4 of that or even online for less.

So just because you have some experience in an office it may or may not help.  The reason they want expereience is they need to maximize the revenue.  Someone fresh out of school may know some things but they probably don't know the nuances of the payors the office is dealing with.

And as another "new" coder pointed out, classroom coding is way different then real world coding.

My two cents.

I hope you all don't give up, I didn't.  But like many have said be realistic. It took me 2 years to get back into the medical field once I got down here and I know that prospect scares you but for me it was worth it.


----------



## mitchellde

Pam Brooks said:


> Well, Ms. Butler, although I respect your right to post on this public board, I'm dismayed that you took my posts out of context and went so far as to suggest that I have been less than professional on this site. I'm a big girl, and clearly understand that not everyone is going to love my no-nonsense approach, but if you want a sugar-coated answer, you'd better head for the bakery. I did go back to the threads that you referenced, read through them all in regards to their full content, and I wouldn't retract a single one. I stand by my comments, my opinions and the manner in which they were intended. If you choose to take it personally, that's your prerogative.
> I think that if you dig deeper into the origin of my posts, you will find that my responses are warranted.   Although I've noted recent improvements, there was a period of time over a year ago where every third post was a litany of complaints, finger-pointing, and yes, whining about the inability to get coding jobs. As a hiring manager, I know what gets people hired, and have tried to share that on this board, with encouragement, suggestions and the occasional plea to stop the pointless pity parties. I'm not the only hiring manager who was fed up with the entitlement felt by some of the new coders when jobs didn't just come raining down like manna from the sky. The posts were so negative and frustrating to read; they detracted from the purpose of the board, and because I am a writer as well as a coder, I felt obligated to respond. This is a tough field….if you're offended by any of this-- heaven help you if you have to ever go toe-to-toe with a thoracic surgeon. Those docs will eat you alive!
> Be shocked if you must, but frankly your attempt to discredit the advice and comments of the many, many successful experienced senior coders on this board who have taken time out of their day to offer a reality check, was probably not a very well-thought out career move.
> In case you're wondering…I will continue to contribute to this board.



Good job!  I love your style, and you have given some really great no nonsense advice.  I had not read this thread before now and I was shocked to see the quotes taken out of context.  This kind of thing should never be done, it is unprofessional and just downright rude!  Pam is always professional and straightforward and never rude!!!
Love you Pam!!! I would love to work with you anytime!


----------



## btadlock1

Butler said:


> I thank everyone for the words of encouragement, but I am also unable to find any job in the medical field for the past 2 years...let alone a coding job. I have my CPC-A and my CHAA (also taken a Professional Medical Coding course, Medical Insurance Reimbursement, Patient Access Fundamentals, Medical Terminology, and Anatomy and Physiology I) . I do not have an extern program in my area. But I do need to work full time to survive and I am unable to move.
> I have no experience in the medical field. I do have office experience.  I am willing to take any entry position to learn and get experience. I have applied for receptionist, customer service, billing, medical records, patient access representative, patient access specialist, unit secretary, clerk, etc.
> 
> P.S.  I do dress professionally, do not own hoochie attire, but I do appreciate the professional opinion.



You may try asking for feedback next time you face rejection, to see what it is that the person that they hired _has_, that you may be missing. Also, read the career advice on Monster and Careerbuilder, and take it to heart.  I heard a quote a long time ago (although I can't remember its origin):

*"If you always do what you've always done, things will always be the way they've always been." *

In other words, if what you're doing's not working, try something else - you have to be your own catalyst for change; forge your own path. I don't know you, or anything about you, so please don't take this as me 'being judgemental' - this applies to anyone who has experienced repeated failure in some venture of their lives, and is something I had to come to terms with, myself:

*Take a good, long, and honest look at yourself.* It's hard to be completely objective, because quite honestly, it *hurts* - people are conditioned to overlook the negative, when it's hurtful; but* good introspection requires it.* I believe that if you really take an honest accounting of your personal attributes, you'll find some area to improve that will make a significant difference (everyone can - myself included). 

How is your attititude conveyed when you're speaking to prospective employers, from the moment you enter the office to submit an application (or your resume)? 
Are you *excited* about the potential opportunity, and greet everyone with a warm, friendly smile?
Are you *nervous and anxious *- maybe you try to smile, but your heart's not quite in it? 
Do you go in with a feeling of crushing defeat weighing on you, perhaps already contemplating how you'll feel if you encounter the same end-result, again?

If the last 2 are true for you, remember, that everyone around you can sense it. If you're pessimistic, or if you've got a chip on your shoulder, those negative emotions will seep out of you in countless ways - your facial expressions (even when they're only fleeting), your tone of voice, and your word choices - the things you choose to say, and what you choose to omit, speak volumes. Your body language will betray you every time. How's your posture? What about making good eye-contact? 

*Do you exude the confidence that comes from someone who knows that they'll be good at the job, regardless of how little experience they have in the field or position?
Do you seem happy? Like you're satisfied with your life, despite the bumps in the road you've had to deal with?
Do you seem like someone who will be positive and upbeat, through the ups and downs that inevitably accompany any job?*

*If you can't answer 'yes' to those questions, then you've got a lot of work to do*, if you hope to land a job at a decent employer in the near future. Employers don't want people who are negative, or who might be detrimental to their other staff's morale, when the going gets tough. You'll turn them off from the moment you enter the room, if you are perceived in that manner. Think outside of the box, and approach your search from a new angle - look for different positions, at different places/specialties than you've been looking at. Anything could be the key.
And when you do go in to fill out an app, or for an interview, don't *just* dress well and run your spell check - hold your head up high, *smile *at everyone you see, *like you've already been given the job.* *Don't* dwell on your failure; *be grateful *for what knowledge and experience you *DO *have (which, for you, is _considerably_ more than many of your peers - don't detract from it, simply because it wasn't in a doctor's office - office experience is office experience, plain and simple), and sell the employer on how much you have to offer in *any *position, as well as how eager you are to learn more. 

You can either roll with the punches, or let them knock you down. Either way, attitude is _everything_ for a good quality of life. Good luck to you all!


----------



## kevbshields

I read this article on Yahoo! today.  Although it isn't particular to our industry, it does embody the spirit required to succeed.  The moves, promotions and transitions are exactly what new graduates and those entering the field might have to pursue.

Regardless, notice the author's positive attitude and willingness to take risk.  This is necessary in today's market.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/first-person-8-10-hour-36-000-061900332.html


----------



## ealasaid76

I would like to point out that some of us have been involved with the health care industry in many ways.  I have been in billing/medical collections for eight years and know about billing and how hospitals and physicians charge for services.  I've been posting cash for that long.  I think that I have my start, but want to get into the coding end of things.  That's where I am now and I'm appalled that someone in the industry would be saying that about people who are just showing frustration.


----------



## btadlock1

msweeney76 said:


> I would like to point out that some of us have been involved with the health care industry in many ways.  I have been in billing/medical collections for eight years and know about billing and how hospitals and physicians charge for services.  I've been posting cash for that long.  I think that I have my start, but want to get into the coding end of things.  That's where I am now and I'm appalled that someone in the industry would be saying that about people who are just showing frustration.



I take it you haven't read beyond the first post in this thread? Or is that you skimmed through, stopping only to read the opinions which validated yours? I imagine that if you'd read all of the posts in their entirety, you wouldn't have made such a comment.


----------



## theresa.dix@tennova.com

btadlock1 said:


> You may try asking for feedback next time you face rejection, to see what it is that the person that they hired _has_, that you may be missing. Also, read the career advice on Monster and Careerbuilder, and take it to heart.  I heard a quote a long time ago (although I can't remember its origin):
> 
> *"If you always do what you've always done, things will always be the way they've always been." *
> 
> In other words, if what you're doing's not working, try something else - you have to be your own catalyst for change; forge your own path. I don't know you, or anything about you, so please don't take this as me 'being judgemental' - this applies to anyone who has experienced repeated failure in some venture of their lives, and is something I had to come to terms with, myself:
> 
> *Take a good, long, and honest look at yourself.* It's hard to be completely objective, because quite honestly, it *hurts* - people are conditioned to overlook the negative, when it's hurtful; but* good introspection requires it.* I believe that if you really take an honest accounting of your personal attributes, you'll find some area to improve that will make a significant difference (everyone can - myself included).
> 
> How is your attititude conveyed when you're speaking to prospective employers, from the moment you enter the office to submit an application (or your resume)?
> Are you *excited* about the potential opportunity, and greet everyone with a warm, friendly smile?
> Are you *nervous and anxious *- maybe you try to smile, but your heart's not quite in it?
> Do you go in with a feeling of crushing defeat weighing on you, perhaps already contemplating how you'll feel if you encounter the same end-result, again?
> 
> If the last 2 are true for you, remember, that everyone around you can sense it. If you're pessimistic, or if you've got a chip on your shoulder, those negative emotions will seep out of you in countless ways - your facial expressions (even when they're only fleeting), your tone of voice, and your word choices - the things you choose to say, and what you choose to omit, speak volumes. Your body language will betray you every time. How's your posture? What about making good eye-contact?
> 
> *Do you exude the confidence that comes from someone who knows that they'll be good at the job, regardless of how little experience they have in the field or position?
> Do you seem happy? Like you're satisfied with your life, despite the bumps in the road you've had to deal with?
> Do you seem like someone who will be positive and upbeat, through the ups and downs that inevitably accompany any job?*
> 
> *If you can't answer 'yes' to those questions, then you've got a lot of work to do*, if you hope to land a job at a decent employer in the near future. Employers don't want people who are negative, or who might be detrimental to their other staff's morale, when the going gets tough. You'll turn them off from the moment you enter the room, if you are perceived in that manner. Think outside of the box, and approach your search from a new angle - look for different positions, at different places/specialties than you've been looking at. Anything could be the key.
> And when you do go in to fill out an app, or for an interview, don't *just* dress well and run your spell check - hold your head up high, *smile *at everyone you see, *like you've already been given the job.* *Don't* dwell on your failure; *be grateful *for what knowledge and experience you *DO *have (which, for you, is _considerably_ more than many of your peers - don't detract from it, simply because it wasn't in a doctor's office - office experience is office experience, plain and simple), and sell the employer on how much you have to offer in *any *position, as well as how eager you are to learn more.
> 
> You can either roll with the punches, or let them knock you down. Either way, attitude is _everything_ for a good quality of life. Good luck to you all!




Brandi.
 On a different note. How was that compliance test? I am wanting to take it!  I could use another certification. I see the study guide is out.


----------



## btadlock1

theresa.dix@ethc.com said:


> Brandi.
> On a different note. How was that compliance test? I am wanting to take it!  I could use another certification. I see the study guide is out.



I'm not gonna lie...it was a LOT harder than I had anticipated - it's the first time I took the whole 5 hours & 40 minutes to finish. I didn't consider that: with coding exams, 90% of the test questions can be found in your manuals, if you know where to look. Not so, with this exam - you either know it, or you don't, and even if you _do_ have it in your resources, you've still got to be able to locate it. 

Personally, I'd buy the practice test, but not the study guide. It was basically a Cliff's Notes of this: http://oig.hhs.gov/compliance/compliance-guidance/index.asp
Plus, a little bit over OSHA, CLIA, HIPAA, PPACA, Qui Tam, the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, and more specific info over CMS rules and regs (most of which can be found here: http://www.cms.gov/home/regsguidance.asp)

The study guide has some issues - it's full of opinions, and not facts, and many of the 'test your knowledge' quizzes were random, in relation to the material discussed in the chapter. Read the OIG's Compliance Guidance for Individual and Small Group Practices, Hopitals, and Third Party Billing Companies about 5 times each, and you should have enough to *almost *pass the exam off of that alone. There was still other stuff, but it's listed out under the AAPC's 'additional preparation methods' link.


----------



## chshaffer41@gmail.com

Brandi,  I just wanted to thank you for your post to my thread.  I think you understand what I was trying to say.  We (us new coders) are frustrated,  and I am sure there are some that are probably expecting to get that job right off the bat and their expectations are a bit unrealistic.  My situation is different in that I am willing to do any job in a medical office if it will lead to the job I am really looking for,  and I think you got that from my post,  and I appreciate that.  I take all the advice that I am given and use it to learn what I can from the "seasoned" coders.  I was just shocked as well that someone that I look to as a mentor in this feild would use the word "whining" to describe some of the new coders.  I realize she was not intending to make it sound like she was addressing the CPC-A's as a whole,  but it was maybe not the best way to say it.  And I know what it's like to need to vent, I have needed the occassion to do so myself.  I just hope we all (new and seasoned) can look at this issue a little closer,  and find solutions to getting those who are willing to do what it takes to get the experience needed,  by reaching out to facilities/doctors who would be willing to help with the intern/training process.  Again I want to thank you for your support and advice (to me personally),  I will keep pushing ahead and I WILL find that job I really want!!


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## johnmeyer

My opinion for what it’s worth…

The REAL issue here is the same issue that all college graduates fall into; no one will hire you unless you have experience, but how do you GET experience if no one will hire you?

I am a Navy retiree who was a meteorologist for 20 years. I earned an AA in Medical Insurance Billing and Coding this past October with a 4.0 GPA. I earned by CPC-A the same month with a final grade of 88%. Even with that, I couldn’t find a job coding for the same reason that almost no other college graduate could; no real experience. I even did a 120 hour externship, but it was in a billing department, not in coding.

I have read post after post after post after post here at the AAPC and the AAPC’s site on LinkedIn from people asking how you get the necessary experience to be hired as a coder. Almost every answer was to volunteer for the experience, but not all of us can do that like me; I can’t afford to not get paid.

So who is to blame? IS there any blame? What should I do now?

Any blame that could be put out should be shared among the way our economy works, along with some college recruiters. Coding students are not the only ones graduating and not being able to find a job in their studies. We are also not the only ones who are being told that going to college will guarantee a good job. As I hinted at the start of this posting, almost ALL college students NEVER find a directly related job to their studies right out of college. The few that do know someone with some real pull in the company. That’s just a fact of the business world. I’m blessed that my parents taught me the reality of the business world; everyone has to start somewhere and most start at the bottom. Bill Gates wasn’t rich from birth, after all.

So what to do?

Everyone has to start somewhere. I’m equally blessed to have the job I have now as a front desk receptionist. I’m doing check in right now and am learning about the practical side of billing. I’m getting experience with the differences between HMOs and PPOs. I’m learning about referrals and authorizations and how to get them for our patients who come without them. I’m learning how the billing side of Medicare works (we don’t accept Medicaid). My next stop will be with check out as I learn how to collect payments and schedule any follow on appointments. After that, my next stop could be billing and coding.

My point is just like anyone else’s point… Most of the time, you have to take a job that is closely related to the job you want if that job requires experience. I had training in billing, coding, reception, transcription, and medical records, so I applied for all of those positions with the ultimate goal of becoming a coder.

During my interview, I told my interviewer that I was really interested in the job she was interviewing me for, but I also told her that I was also interested in becoming a coder since I have my CPC-A. I think this in part is what put me over the top because I know she had others to interview for the same position. That and being a vet really helped because the lead doctor is a vet himself and many others in the practice are vets.

I also interviewed directly with a doctor at another practice and even he laid it all out in regards to being a brand new biller/coder. You are the life blood of a practice; you can make a practice or you can break it. The financial health of a practice is mostly in your hands. No one will get paid if you goof something up because you don’t have the practical experience needed to ensure that payments are made. This is why almost all practices require us to have experience.

So there we run into that “experience” thing again. Well now what????? How about this…

If you can, volunteer for experience as an intern/extern.

The issue I’ve found with this is that not everyone wants an intern/extern. They don’t want to spend the time teaching someone who will not be working at their facility, but don’t let that get you down. There are practices out there that are willing to teach an intern/extern, you just have to look just as you would for a job.

If you’re like me and can’t afford to volunteer, find a closely related job as I did. If you’re going to do this, make sure to tell your interviewer that you’re not only interested in the job they are interviewing you for, but that you also want to learn coding sometime in the future.

I wish the best of luck to all those who are still looking for that seemingly illusive job. Other than that, all I can say is to not try to over reach if you’re starting out. Like I said, EVERYONE has to start somewhere and most start at the bottom.


----------



## cjmusser

This has been a very interesting thread.  There has been a tremendous amount of growth in this field which has created many searching for jobs in a down economy and caught in the catch 22 for any "new graduate" in any field of having the education but not the "expierience".  There is a combination of things that one must consider when entering a field as a new graduate.  First, you must have a superb work ethic and make a good first impression.  Do not sell yourself short but you also have to have a sense of humbleness and show that you are willing to learn and grow.  Second, it holds true in any field that education does not mean you are going to get your dream job right out of the gate.  I graduated with a Bachelor's Degree in Health Care Administration in 1995 and thought I was going to be hired right into management!  After a few interviews I was humbled and realized that in the medical field I needed some practical experience and I was quickly hired as a receptionist in a medical office.  I gained skills and experience and was on my way into the coding and compliance world within the first year.  If I had gotten what I thought I wanted I would have been setting myself up for failure because I needed some "on the job training" to expose me to the real world outside of the classroom. The education gives you the basic foundation and textbook knowledge but you have to set realistic goals for breaking into the field.  One of my co-workers started in the file room and six years later was eventually hired into the coding department.  She was grateful for the experience she gained along the way before getting into a coding position.  Don't think that an entry level position is beneath you - instead view it as an opportunity to round out your skills and add to the degree you worked hard to achieve.  I would not trade any of my "non-coding medical" experience for anything - it has enriched my coding career. Finally, network, network and keep up with the changes in the whole health care arena - there are so many different career avenues in this field.

Don't limit yourself!
Happy New Year!

Christie


----------



## cjmusser

Another thought to all new graduates is to find a mentor either in the organization you are working in or someone in your local chapter.  Finding a place to do an internship is also a great avenue as was mentioned in a previous post.  I have had the wonderful opportunity to mentor multiple new coders in each organization I have worked and I have watched them grow and move into the positions they were working towards but sometimes it is a one, two, three or more year process.  I encourage any seasoned coders to reach out to the newer ones in the field and help them develop the skills and find the resources we know they will need to grow in the field.  

Be encouraged!


----------



## ChrisZim

cjmusser said:


> This has been a very interesting thread.  There has been a tremendous amount of growth in this field which has created many searching for jobs in a down economy and caught in the catch 22 for any "new graduate" in any field of having the education but not the "expierience".  There is a combination of things that one must consider when entering a field as a new graduate.  First, you must have a superb work ethic and make a good first impression.  Do not sell yourself short but you also have to have a sense of humbleness and show that you are willing to learn and grow.  Second, it holds true in any field that education does not mean you are going to get your dream job right out of the gate.  I graduated with a Bachelor's Degree in Health Care Administration in 1995 and thought I was going to be hired right into management!  After a few interviews I was humbled and realized that in the medical field I needed some practical experience and I was quickly hired as a receptionist in a medical office.  I gained skills and experience and was on my way into the coding and compliance world within the first year.  If I had gotten what I thought I wanted I would have been setting myself up for failure because I needed some "on the job training" to expose me to the real world outside of the classroom. The education gives you the basic foundation and textbook knowledge but you have to set realistic goals for breaking into the field.  One of my co-workers started in the file room and six years later was eventually hired into the coding department.  She was grateful for the experience she gained along the way before getting into a coding position.  Don't think that an entry level position is beneath you - instead view it as an opportunity to round out your skills and add to the degree you worked hard to achieve.  I would not trade any of my "non-coding medical" experience for anything - it has enriched my coding career. Finally, network, network and keep up with the changes in the whole health care arena - there are so many different career avenues in this field.
> 
> Don't limit yourself!
> Happy New Year!
> 
> Christie



Could not have said it better Christie! Experience, not just education, is what will help you get/keep a job. It allows you to have and exhibit confidence, and communicate your knowledge to the staff and providers around you. Being the coder/biller for the practice is mroe than just "typing in the codes the doctor circles". We help the providers stay up to date on changes/regulations and this means not always just "billing" every service, but billing every service CORRECTLY the FIRST time - time = money in every business, medicine especially.  Once your providers have respect & confidence in you, you will be invaluable to them as a resource, letting them concentrate on medicine knowing they can always check with you about the billing side of how to do it "right"!


----------



## dclark7

I've been following this post and it's been quite interesting.  May I share things from a doctor's point of view?  First some background, I teach medical billing at a local community college and have had a doctor friend speak with my students.  I didn't know what she was going to say, but asked her to speak to them from an employers persepctive and tell them what she was looking for in an employee.

The first thing she said was that she would NOT hire a new coder fresh out of school.  She said the same thing that Chris said, "time=money" and she does have enough of either to get a new coder up to speed, she needs people who can "hit the ground running" (her words).  She told the class that she does not have time to keep up with all the regulation changes and audits, that is why she has a coder/biller.  She has alot of respect for coders/billers, but after interviewing recent graduates she found that they were not prepared for the highly regulated system that medicine has become.  (Before all you new coders get mad, you should know that she works with a couple of different schools and offers internships in her office so she is very much aware of what is being taught.)  She also told them that the majority of her colleagues feel the same way.  She did have the same advice that many seasoned coders in this forum have expressed, take whatever job you can to get a foot in the door, work hard and show interest in helping out and learning new things.  She pointed out to them, the front desk person checking in patients needs to know what insurance the office participates with, who needs referrals or auths and some of the insurance rules.  Her comment was that all revenue starts at the front desk.  She also felt that the market has been overwhelmed with new coders who will have a tough time gaining the needed experience.

I did not know she felt this way until she spoke to my class, but it was an eye opener.  So to all of you who feel your education is being wasted, take it from the doc - do what you can to get your foot in the door.


----------



## theresa.dix@tennova.com

btadlock1 said:


> I'm not gonna lie...it was a LOT harder than I had anticipated - it's the first time I took the whole 5 hours & 40 minutes to finish. I didn't consider that: with coding exams, 90% of the test questions can be found in your manuals, if you know where to look. Not so, with this exam - you either know it, or you don't, and even if you _do_ have it in your resources, you've still got to be able to locate it.
> 
> Personally, I'd buy the practice test, but not the study guide. It was basically a Cliff's Notes of this: http://oig.hhs.gov/compliance/compliance-guidance/index.asp
> Plus, a little bit over OSHA, CLIA, HIPAA, PPACA, Qui Tam, the Federal Sentencing Guidelines, and more specific info over CMS rules and regs (most of which can be found here: http://www.cms.gov/home/regsguidance.asp)
> 
> The study guide has some issues - it's full of opinions, and not facts, and many of the 'test your knowledge' quizzes were random, in relation to the material discussed in the chapter. Read the OIG's Compliance Guidance for Individual and Small Group Practices, Hopitals, and Third Party Billing Companies about 5 times each, and you should have enough to *almost *pass the exam off of that alone. There was still other stuff, but it's listed out under the AAPC's 'additional preparation methods' link.



Brandi,
 thank you for the information on the test. I appreciate it!


----------



## rykin7609

I know I am late coming in on this conversation but I whole-heartedly agree with the dclark7's post...do what you can to get your foot in the door. I got my Associate's Degree in Medical Billing and Coding then completed the certification classes from AAPC. I even started my Bachelor's Degree in Health Administration but circumstances at the time deemed that I should only complete a year of the degree. 

I sent out every resume I could and I was beginning to regret going into coding because no one even wanted to talk to me unless I have the dreaded word...experience! I sent resume's to Alaska, Montana, Kansas, Pennsylvania, Wyoming, South Carolina....you name it, I sent them. I finally did get a job working as a front desk receptionist and that was a wonderful experience. 

I count myself very fortunate that I now have a wonderful job working for a Cardilogy Group but I have to say that it took taking what ever job I could in the medical field, including working as a temp in the business office doing soft collections. Yes, collections but every bit of learning does help. 

AND, so much counts on how you present yourself, your work ethics and persistance. Because I did not have the experience I was going to be passed up for someone who did, but my boss at that time was called as a job reference and what got me the job was the above mentioned things. 

Take whatever job you can to get you closer to your goal. And never spoke or regret your education.


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## Mariem59

I appreciate all the advice given in this thread. I won't give up!


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## YueQu

*Hello to Dear Arlene J. Smith, President AAPC Tacoma WA Chapter*

Dear Arlene J. Smith, 
As you are the President, AAPC Tacoma WA Chapter, could you help me to find a opportunity to work as internship or externship , or volunteer? I am a new CPC-A, no on the job experience,but I had over 1000 case practices, I konw it is difficult to find a coding job for new CPC-A, that is why I prefer to start my coding career from externship. My family will move to near Seattle soon, that is why I am willing to find an externship opportunity in your area. Currently , I live in Detroit Area, I will move soon . Thank you very much in advance.
CatherineYue


----------



## ajs

YueQu said:


> Dear Arlene J. Smith,
> As you are the President, AAPC Tacoma WA Chapter, could you help me to find a opportunity to work as internship or externship , or volunteer? I am a new CPC-A, no on the job experience,but I had over 1000 case practices, I konw it is difficult to find a coding job for new CPC-A, that is why I prefer to start my coding career from externship. My family will move to near Seattle soon, that is why I am willing to find an externship opportunity in your area. Currently , I live in Detroit Area, I will move soon . Thank you very much in advance.
> CatherineYue



Catherine, I am now the Past-President of the Tacoma chapter which is about 40 miles south of Seattle, but I am always willing to help where I can.  The Seattle area is very large and there are a number of large medical facilities.  Depending on where exactly you end up, I would start with one of the larger organizations like; University of Washington Medical Center, Providence Medical Center, Swedish Medical Center, Polyclinic, Minor and James Medical Center.  Those are several in the main Seattle area.  If you end up in an outlying area there are others.  Let me know when you have chosen what area you are going to be living in.
Arlene


----------



## Cyndi113

Catherine, 

Also contact Multicare (it is in Tacoma, however). I know that they were allowing externs and helping them with coding. However, this was 3 years ago and may have changed but it won't hurt to try it. I'll try and check with some friends who are still working there.


----------



## YueQu

*Cyndi Allen, Thank you very much for your message.*

Hi, Cyndi Allen,
     Thank you very much for your kind help. I just found your message, because I am not familar with this AAPC web system. 
     Currently , my family(only my husband and me) has decided to move to Seattle area, 
My husband is experienced IT senior engineer(PHD), he is looking for Seattle area job, I think it is not difficulty to find a job in Seattle area for him, that is why I want to find an externship in Seattle area. If there is  someone who will accept me to work as  externship, may be I will come first, no matter which Seattle area, I could set my living location near externship location. 
      Thank you again for your time! I will try to contact Muticare.
Catherine


----------



## YueQu

*Arlene J. Smith, Thank you very much for you message!*

Hi,Arlene J. Smith,
Thank you very much for your kind help. I just found your message, because I am not familar with this AAPC web system. 
Currently , my family(only my husband and me) has decided to move to Seattle area, 
My husband is experienced IT senior engineer(PHD), he is looking for Seattle area job, I think it is not difficulty to find a job in Seattle area for him, that is why I want to find an externship in Seattle area. Let me discuss with my husband, which area where he will let me go to, may be I will come first, no matter which Seattle area, I could set my living location near externship location. 
Thank you again for your time! 

Catherine


----------



## jmcpolin

*we all had to start somewhere*

I have been coding multispecialty for about 14 years now and I really do not appreciate when senior coders act superior and look down at new coders just because they have more experience, have they all forgotten that they were in the same spot at one time of their lives?  They were not expert coders either when they all started out so I think for those of us who have more experience we need to be patient with the newer coders and share the knowledge we have with them without making them feel inferior.


----------



## coachlang3

Jenifer,

I don't think it's about feeling superior as coders.  I think it's about people wanting us to get them jobs or get out of their way so they can have our jobs or waving the magic wands and making everything ok for them.

I've worked in the medical office field for over 10 years now.  I ran a medical office in an outpatient setting and now I simply code and bill for a fairly large private practice.  If you look up my posts and the responses to them I think you'll find I am far from superior (both in replies and answers I've given) and many other "senior" coders are also.  We all ask questions and look for answers and guidance on certain subjects.

But the senior coders here are not the ones coming on and calling everyone to task for not having positions or jobs and are not pointing fingers at the AAPC for not having in/ex-ternships.

We are asked the same questions and give the same advice repeatedly and that's ok.  But now that advice is not acceptable anymore.  They want us to do more.  They want us to get them jobs.

I know I'm not looking down at anyone for having less experience than I do.  Like you said, everyone starts somewhere.  I'm looking around (not down) at those that can't or won't accept reality and take responsibility for themselves and they're choices.


----------



## espressoguy

Cyndi113 said:


> Catherine,
> 
> Also contact Multicare (it is in Tacoma, however). I know that they were allowing externs and helping them with coding. However, this was 3 years ago and may have changed but it won't hurt to try it. I'll try and check with some friends who are still working there.



I did my externship with Multicare in December, 2010. For the past couple of years it seems as though they have had a few openings for Coder I's.

As of today there is 1 part time opening for a Coder I. Under minimum requirements it says, "New grads welcome." There was also a full time opening that they must have just filled since the last time I looked.


----------



## kml1764

Butler said:


> Brandi,
> I am the person who had started this particular thread and the word "whining" was taken as a direct quote from another thread that I had read on the AAPC web site. I have been able to find some of the posts I had read.  I had started this thread because I was shocked at the direct quote and was looking for encouragement. I just wanted everyone to know. Below are three of the posts:
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________________________________
> #168 *  *  *
> 07-13-2010, 04:33 AM
> Pam Brooks
> Expert*Join Date: Apr 2007
> Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
> Posts: 404
> 
> Perhaps the whining will stop, and the board can be used for the purpose it was originally intended...to offer guidance and support to professional coders.
> 
> Thanks for the kudos. I just felt that it had to be said. I'm off my soapbox now.
> __________________
> Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
> Physician Services Coding Supervisor
> Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
> Dover, NH 03820
> 
> --and--
> 
> Pam Brooks
> Expert*Join Date: Apr 2007
> Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
> Posts: 404
> 
> As someone who has been in this business for 20+ years, and who is in the position to hire entry level coders, I really want to respond to this thread.
> 
> First, I agree that it's frustrating to have spent time, money and effort, only to learn that the healthcare field is not waiting for you with open arms. But I want to ask each and every one of you who are not currently able to find work to look at this situation from my perspective, and then ask yourselves who is really responsible for all of this? Let me be as blunt and as polite as I possibly can. If I offend you, I apologize in advance.
> 
> One post I read lamented that they had spent "3 whole months" learning this work, and felt ripped off because nobody would hire them. If anyone thinks that they can learn coding in three months, and expect any physician, facility, or billing agency to hire you with that "expansive" length of education, then you were sadly misinformed, or did not take the time to do the research, which is, by the way, a necessary skill required of all coders. The biggest trend I am seeing in this thread is that many of you didn't do your research. Before plunking down your money for your coding classes, did you call any hosptials, physicians or billing companies to see what they required for education and experience? Or did you rely on the advertisements and promises of the coding schools alone to convince you that this is a wide-open field? Had you called me (a coding supervisor for a hospital-owned multispecialty practice with 90+ physicians) I would have told you that I do not hire new graduates for staff coding positions, and that the EMR has eliminated the need for entry level coding assistants.
> 
> I did recently have one entry-level position open up. I threw out several resumes for spelling and grammar errors. (hello....attention to detail??!!) Some applicants had schedule requirements that I couldn't meet, like they couldn't work on Tuesdays because they had to babysit the grandkid. One showed up in clothing that voilated our dress code. In the end, only four certified coders were in the running. I was shocked that only one could tell me the difference between CPT and ICD-9. You can see how this might be discouraging to an employer, because it tells me that not everyone is getting the best training, and not everyone wants to do all that they can to secure employment.
> 
> According to the Coding Edge between April and July of this year, there were nearly 2100 new CPC-A's credentialled. I do not blame the AAPC, as many of you have. The AAPC is a for-profit company, dedicated to promoting and educating excellent coders, and they do a fantastic job. But why shouldn't they take take your money if you offer it up? They are not responsible for the job market, your resume content, your interveiw behavior, your lack of education or experience, your geographic region, or that you took a chance on this career and can't get a job. That is your responsibility. Threatening litigation on this website is career suicide; there isn't a coding manager on earth that would hire you now.
> 
> Here's what I look for: Is your resume spotless? Are you? Look in the mirror, appearance does count, sorry. You'll be speaking with physicians and will wear a badge that identifies you as an employee, and we want you to be neatly and professionally presented. Skip the cigarette before the interview, I can smell it. Explain to me what it is about you that makes you someone that I want to hire. I can teach you to code, but I can't teach you to be motivated, organized, personable or smart. Figure out what kind of coder I need (surgery, E&M, rad, lab) and then brush up on those areas, because I'm going to test you. Ask me questions, don't just sit there!
> 
> I once had an interview for a job that I really wanted, and did not get the job. I couldn't understand why...I thought the interview went extremely well. Later, I asked for feedback as to why I wasn't selected, and it was the most valuable career advice I have ever received. I made mistakes (unknowingly at the time) that were pointed out to me, and although it was difficult to hear, I never made those mistakes again. So if you don't get the job, find out why, because even though you don't want to hear this....it might be about you, and it might be something you can do differently next time with more favorable results.
> 
> I apologize for the length of this post, but I hope that I was able to give a different perspective. The best advice I can give is to stay focused, accept any position within the healthcare field, avoid the bad attitudes, and keep trying.
> __________________
> Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
> Physician Services Coding Supervisor
> Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
> Dover, NH 03820
> 
> Last edited by Pam Brooks; 07-09-2010 at 10:45 AM.
> 
> --and--
> 
> 09-01-2010, 04:41 AM
> Pam Brooks
> Expert
> 
> Join Date: Apr 2007
> Location: Dover Seacoast New Hampshire
> Posts: 404
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by gavyton
> That really stinks! I am currently a biller at an office in St. Pete Florida but I have hopes of getting into a practice that will pay me for my skills. I mean I am the only one in a small practice that does the billing here ( & then some ) & now they want me to take on coding as well. I hardly have time to do what I have now, posting, follow up, statements, not to mention the extras I must to in order to maintain flow & then to take on coding as well. I am going to sink in all this work. I am in school now for coding, I can only hope between my school seeking out jobs for me & my 2 years of billing that there is hope I can land a job that will pay more than I am making now. I mean I have a full plate here & hardly get enough money to make it. I really had hopes coding would open more doors but I can see that most places want 3 years or more coding. It is so depressing.
> 
> Maybe instead of complaining about the increased responsiblity to "take on the coding", you can consider this an opportunity to learn more about this field. There are thousands of certified coders who are unable to get experience (never mind even a job) who would be thrilled to have the opportunity that you have been presented. Frankly, your attitude is unfortunate. Take a peek at the resume posting board...I bet someone there would love to take over for you.
> 
> It's not about the money, and if it is, you should just move on right now. Nobody is getting rich in healthcare any longer. It's about job satisfaction and the opportunity to help and learn. With budget cuts, payer constraints and a poor economy, we're all overworked, but personally, I'm damned happy to have a job.
> 
> Pull up your big girl (or boy) pants, everyone. Life isn't going to hand you a winning lottery ticket. You have to work to get what you want, and you're never going to start at the top. I've posted (and presented) on this topic before, and continue to be amazed at the whining and ranting on this professional board.
> __________________
> Pam Brooks, PCS, CPC
> Physician Services Coding Supervisor
> Wentworth-Douglass Hospital
> Dover, NH 03820
> ________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> On a positive note...I appreciate all of the additional information and words of encouragement we have received. I feel this has been very beneficial and has provided me with valuable information. This has helped to shed some light on why my applications have been denied.  This is the information I wish I would have heard in the classroom.
> 
> I think that, by knowing what to expect in the job search, will provide us with the tools needed to leap over hurdles : )
> 
> Dianne



Okay, so being housebound due to TS Debbie in Florida, I'm looking through many of the older threads.

I'm reading this particular post which included posts from Pam Brooks.  All I can say is, thank you, Pam!  I don't know if this was the intention of this poster, but I think that was Pam was expressing is something that everyone should consider. 

While I have many years experience working in the medical field (medical secretary/transcriptionist/health unit coordinator/some front office work), MBC is new to me.  Personally having seen the various complexities with medical coding in real life, I don't think I would want to go directly into a coding position before getting more of a lay of the land.  To me, that means I want as much of a foundation on how the medical organization is run.  If that means I start as a medical receptionist/scheduler/biller, whatever, I will do that gladly and proudly.

Professionalism is so important, and first appearances do count.  Those first appearances start with the application for a position with your resume.  I'm not talking about necessarily how experienced that you may be, but the appearance of the resume.  Coding (and other areas in the medical office arena) requires a lot of attention to detail.  So, if one can't take the time to make sure that their resume is without typos or spelling errors, how can future employers be assured that you won't pay special care in coding.

So, I apologize to the originator of this particular post, but I do feel that Pam gave a very good explanation of what all applicants (experienced or newbies) should heed when they are looking for work.

Kris


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## stheck

I enjoyed reading these posts. I agree that many of the technical schools offering 9 month coding courses are false advertising. Not only do they tell students that there are many jobs out there (look at the economy there are not many jobs in any field), but they also exaggerate the starting salary. It takes many years of experience to reach the salary that they are advertising as "beginning". Also, remote coding requires many years of experience. It is interesting to see how many newly certified coders post something in the "searching for employment" forum looking for remote coding positions with no coding experience. I remember when I started out, I though I knew everything because I just passed the test, but now many years into the field I realize I still have a lot to learn. 

I began with a three month unpaid internship while I was completing my coding classes. Once the three months was up, I was hired on for inbound/outbound, which was basically check in, check out, with some coding and collections at check out. I then applied for a billing position and scheduled my exam. When I passed my exam I was offered a position in the coding department. This took from 2005 (beginning my coding classes) to 2008 to get into a coding position. And even then I started out at a very low pay grade. 

It takes a great deal of effort to find a position in any field (not just coding) especially in this economy and especially with no experience in the chosen field.

I also am tired of hearing whining about not immediately getting a coding position, it takes a great deal of effort, and in many cases I have heard that places would rather hire a newly certified coder than one that has many years of experience in a specific field. I am told this is because they can start them out with a low salary and they are able to "mold" them into the type of coder they want them to be.


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## Hipoink

Back in 1995 I took a position for a on-the-job training for a medical coder. They only hired licensed nurses. I was very fortunate for I am still in the coding biz! I received my CPC certification in 2011, as I did my research only to find that most employers wanted certified coders. This opened doors to many more opportunities for employment. I work as a remote coder and love it! I agree with many of the seasoned coders of this forum...finding a job is not a cake walk. Before investing any moneys into career training...do your homework. Passing a test does not qualify me to be a doc. or a hairdresser. I know better. I've worked with 4 year GN's that placed BP cuffs on backwards. I've noticed that many poster's maintain several certifications and that only motivates me to improve myself! Keep moving or you'll get run over!   KC LPNCPC


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## texancoder01

Good points, Arlene!  I, too, have over 25 years in healthcare/coding....and will probably be here until my brain explodes....which may happen, sooner rather than later!    I also agree with the other posters, that the schools 'should' give better information about the immediate availability of coding jobs in their locale.  'For profit' schools are notorious in this regard!   

New coders need to understand that it is the physician's license that is on the line, when codes/charges are submitted.  The physician/providers  are the ones that are ultimately responsible for what is submitted, and they are the ones that are 'requiring' that the coders be very knowledgeable/experienced before hiring.  The medical staff generally has input into these policies/decisions, although perhaps not directly in the instance of a particular hire.  

When I was initially hired, back in the early 80's, there wasn't as much emphasis by the payors on all the things  they focus on today.  It's an entirely different environment now than it was then!


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## Hipoink

I wonder if any of these  "coding schools" inform students about the rigorous quality assurance done on a daily basis for most billing and reimbursement companies. That in itself can be a downfall for some. Anyone else think so?


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## cldavenport

@Hipoink.....I certainly agree with you about the rigorous QA! In this day and age, billing/coding practices are heavily scrutinized! Compliance is a hot topic!


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## cldavenport

Would also like to add that when I completed school 15+ years ago, my counselor made it well known that although the school provides internship info, the student is ultimately responsible for making the initial contact. The counselor handed me a folder containing the contacts and I was on my own. I took that advice to heart. Made contact and was able to get an unpaid internship, which led to a fulltime paid position after graduation with the same company. This was in 1997. I am a prior military spouse. We moved from state to state and I was able to gain employment within 3 months of every relocation. All that experience added up and I am extremely happy with my employment now. (no longer military or married!)....I say all this to say that you have to take responsibility from the beginning, start somewhere and continue to build knowledge and experience!!!

Good luck to all new grads/job seekers!!


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## yllek521@gmail.com

I've been following this thread as well.  I agree with the facts that been mentioned throughout this thread.  I have about one month to complete a course to receive my career diploma in Medical Billing and Coding.  I have over 18 years of administrative experience and I am currently working for a very small private law firm and hate it with a passion but it's a job and pays my bills.  I am trying to save money to update my materials so I can take my CPC exam at the end of the year.  I volunteer once a week at a free clinic, very old school ways of patient encounter (no computers, strictly paper).  

"When I decided to change careers, I knew that I would have to start at the bottom and I have NO problem doing so. I've sent every resume out for the lowest of lowest entry level positions in my area for receptionist, file clerk, etc just to expand my career in the medical world.  I'm also applying for part-time positions for secondary opportunities.

But, when NO ONE gives you that opportunity, NOT EVEN for an entry level position, yes it gets very frustrating.  At times I feel is it worth it?  

Yes I chose to enter this field, I choose to stick it out NO MATTER how frustrating it is now or forever how long, I will NOT QUIT.  I find this very challenging, and I like a challenge, but with this field, you constantly learn every day, that is the beauty of it, you LEARN.

If you want something bad enough, you take the necessary steps, be professional, be confident, do your homework on that employer, asked questions as though you are interviewing them, and communicate on what you can bring to the company and how they can benefit.

I wish everyone the best of luck on their future endeavors, JUST DON'T GIVE UP!


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