# change to subs if not enough info for level 1??



## AmandaW (Oct 7, 2011)

An initial hospital visit even at it's lowest requires:

Hx: detailed
exam: detailed
MDM: low

You need 3 out of 3....what if I can't get 3 out of 3 even at the lowest level?  
Do I code the lowest initial anyway or drop down to a subsequent?


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## mitchellde (Oct 7, 2011)

I have always been told to drop it to a subsequent level, if you are the consulting provider.  If you are the admitting provider I was instructed to query the physician for additional documentation or use the unlisted, or have the provider change from inpatient to observation status.


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## AmandaW (Oct 7, 2011)

Thank Debra!  This is a case where more documentation was requested from the admitting physician but it was coming up on timely filing so about to lose the whole charge all together. As we all know, some are not the greatest at staying on top of discrepencies, etc.  If he was in a Outpatient status-it would still be initial which still requires the same levels with the 3 out of 3.  And he wasn't the consulting.  He was the admitting. So, when everything has been done that can be done (with requesting more documentation and all) I wonder what I would have to resort to?  The lowest initial level or subsequent?  I thought I read somewhere that Medicare says if it's an initial hospital vist, it must be billed as initial.


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## AmandaW (Oct 7, 2011)

Oh yea...you said unlisted code.  Oh man, sure don't want to have to resort to that...uhg!  Don't you have to send in a special report and all?


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## MnTwins29 (Oct 7, 2011)

AmandaW said:


> Thank Debra!  This is a case where more documentation was requested from the admitting physician but it was coming up on timely filing so about to lose the whole charge all together. As we all know, some are not the greatest at staying on top of discrepencies, etc.  If he was in a Outpatient status-it would still be initial which still requires the same levels with the 3 out of 3.  And he wasn't the consulting.  He was the admitting. So, when everything has been done that can be done (with requesting more documentation and all) I wonder what I would have to resort to?  The lowest initial level or subsequent?  I thought I read somewhere that Medicare says if it's an initial hospital vist, it must be billed as initial.



If this is the case (outpatient), then you are correct that 3 of 3 is still needed, but if the HX and/or Exam are PF or EPF, you can still code level 1 or 2 visits as appropriate.   The requirement for a minimum of detailed Hx and exam are only for initial inpatient visits.   

Deborah expressed my other thoughts already and very succinctly, if the provider is the consultant or for querying.    Thank you.


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## AmandaW (Oct 17, 2011)

Right.  The initial visit is what I'm questioning.


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## AmandaW (Oct 24, 2011)

Initial AND Inpatient.


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## penguins11 (Oct 24, 2011)

I have never heard of changing from inpatient to outpatient just because the admitting cant meet criteria.  All of the other consulting physicians who have already billed as inpatient are going to be awfully angry at you if you do this, as well as the hospital and the patient who has to pay all of the outpatient copays.  Plus you have to inform the patient of a status change while they are still in the hospital.  To me, if the physician has not given you enough documentation after repeated requests that is their fault and they will learn when they start to lose revenue.


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## AmandaW (Oct 25, 2011)

Yeah, I never heard of changing it either until the other day from one of my fellow coder friends.  I definetly think the Dr. should get the lowest-I just hope as the certified coder I will be ok since I billed something that doesn't even meet the lowest criteria.  But I didn't see any other option...


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